Ch 7 Pro se or attorney?

[ccsjoe]

Been reading quite a bit here although I only joined the forum officially yesterday. Ultimate question is should I go at it pro se or pay the 2K for attorney. Here's my situation:

Ch 7
15K over state median but pass means test (California, household 3)
36K unsecured nonpriority debt (credit card)
*Been using credit cards regularly, e.g. charged about 2K to one of them in last 6 months, although most charges were oublic transit/gasoline/groceries or household items) but charges have been made as payments have been made as well, clearly showing a no-win cashflow situation. I have as of yesterday discontinued any and all use of credit cards (all maxed out anyhow and have been for quite sometime, so max out is no abuse as it is over 2 years same status)
5500 in IRS and FTB debt from 2009, IRS installment agreement in place, FTB awaiting status of installment request
29K car loan, but will be reaffirmed (Ford demands reaff's or repos even if current)

Expecting class action settlement (4.1K gross 3.3K net) by end of August, which may use to pay for attorney.

I do not want to stop using my checking account regularly and convert to all cash and check cashing places.

1. Case seems pretty run of the mill that I should be able to go pro se?
2. Can or will trustee ask for bank statements as of the day of filing or can he request statements beyind that, e.g. after the creditors' meeting or even after the discharge?
3. Can or will trustee ask for tax returns for 2010 (yes, in the future) assuming I am filing this month?

Sorry about the questions, but I'm just starting this process and it is rather unnerving to say the least. I am sure I will have more questions later just as I am sure I will attempt to answer questions that I do have knowledge about.

Thank you
JR

[ccsjoe]

Forgot to mention house is rental, no real property owned, using wildcard exemption from sheme 2 this is a no-asset case.

[tigergem]

I'm probably the wrong person to answer this question for you just right now, because I am having a personal anti attorney moment.

I have heard that Chapter 7 is pretty commonly done pro se, but that doesn't mean you can be careless about it. I would suggest that you take a look at the forms, see if you understand them. Read the Nolo book. See if you understand it. Read through your local rules of procedure, gauge your own learning curve and attention to detail and diligence and then decide.

We have had two or three successful California pro se 7 filers on this board in recent weeks, so you might want to hunt up their threads and see what they had to say about it.

Good luck!

[justbroke]

With the amount of items your mention, including various tax related issues, you are best filing through an attorney. When a case gets complex, regardless of what Chapter you intend to file under, you need legal representation.

The answers to your questions are.

1. No. You are over the median.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. Also, the Trustee would be entitled to take a percentage based on the number of months in the year. If you file in September, as an example, the Trustee could take 66% of any refund. (Unless, of course, you can exempt it.)

[ccsjoe]

Thank you Tigergem and justbroke for the replies.

Justbroke, I thought things were pretty run of the mill if I was over median but clearly passed means test. Also, my tax question is about tax returns in the future, not tax refunds. My tax debt is merely unpaid income tax from 2009 which we worked out an installment agreement for.

Not attempting to argue here so please don't take it that way. I asked for opinion and that is what you are giving and I appreciate it.

Thanks

[tigergem]

jb is the better voice of reason, I promise you.

[justbroke]

Justbroke, I thought things were pretty run of the mill if I was over median but clearly passed means test. Also, my tax question is about tax returns in the future, not tax refunds. My tax debt is merely unpaid income tax from 2009 which we worked out an installment agreement for.

The fact that you are over the median and want to file Chapter 7, makes your case more complex. The United States Trustee (UST) is going to pull your expenses apart! Wouldn't it be worth $2,000 to have an attorney make sure that your case is solid and that you can rebut any probing by the UST?

You can proceed on your own, but being over the median, you really need to have your expenses perfected! That means your mortgage will probably need to be current and you will need to at least "intend" to reaffirm.

I say this, even though I'm over the median by more than $100K/year and filed Chapter 7 pro se. However, I had almost 2 years of BK experience through my Chapter 13 that I converted to Chapter 7.

[ccsjoe]

No mortgage here though jb, just rent, nothing late yet, not even credit cards....well, credit cards will start being late in August.

Then again I guess it shows how much of a neophyte I am to this that I thought it was pretty straightforward.

[justbroke]

If you don't have a mortgage payment, and are over the median... you will be hard pressed to receive a discharge in a Chapter 7. What are your major expenses (housing, cars,etc)? Have you looked at the IRS Expense Guidelines to make sure your rent is in line with a family of your size in your county? I think you might be surprised to learn that the means test is quite stingy when it comes to non-homeowners.

You say that you passed the means test, but I don't know how you did. It was not built to have a non-homeowner pass it if they are over the median. (I'm guessing, that it's the IRS debt that is actually "helping" you.) Otherwise, something must be awry.

[ccsjoe]

JB, after having consulted with a couple attorneys (and thanks to you I will be retaining one solely based on not wanting to handle the IRS alone-not seeking discharge of that, just don't know what effect the stay will have on the installment agreement), they both are confident the means test won't be an issue.

To satisfy your inquiry, yes, I did use IRS guidelines for my state/county and household size, additionally I have a monthly car payment of 520, childcare of 850, and my mandatory tax witholdings need to be around 1500 monthly (mandatory taxes are the only item allowed in the means test to be forward looking because it is a legal issue). I adjusted my witholdings last year to almost nothing to float our lifestyle; which generated the 5500 tax bill I now have. If I don't adjust NOW, I will have similar bill next year. All 3 attorneys told me the exact same thing about forward looking related to only taxes when doing means testing.

Bottom line, means test results show that I am negative approx 750/month.

[justbroke]

To satisfy your inquiry, yes, I did use IRS guidelines for my state/county and household size, additionally I have a monthly car payment of 520, childcare of 850, and my mandatory tax witholdings need to be around 1500 monthly (mandatory taxes are the only item allowed in the means test to be forward looking because it is a legal issue). I adjusted my witholdings last year to almost nothing to float our lifestyle; which generated the 5500 tax bill I now have. If I don't adjust NOW, I will have similar bill next year. All 3 attorneys told me the exact same thing about forward looking related to only taxes when doing means testing.

While the car is excessive and may be challenged. The taxes are allowable, so I'm not challenging that. Are you single with two children? That would explain the high childcare. Without that, you'd be... in trouble.

If you're using the attorney to file, then they will fight for you and get you through.

[ccsjoe]

I am married with 1 child. Childcare where I live (full day, 5 days a week) to allow us both to work is actually on average 1200/month, we just managed to find a slightly cheaper one.

As far as car and transportation I am claiming the following IRS standards:

Line 22A: 1 Vehicle, $306 transportation expenses
Line 22B: Public Transport, $182 (my wife commutes solely on public and this is a joint petition)

Then Line 23, Vehicle ownership expense IRS guidelines are 496 for 1 vehicle. My contract/monthly payment with Ford is 519.55. If they want to challenge the $25 over the IRS standard, I'm cool with it, but I'm putting down the real figure since line 23 asks for the actual figure from line 42b (debts secured by actual vehicle).

[justbroke]

I am married with 1 child. Childcare where I live (full day, 5 days a week) to allow us both to work is actually on average 1200/month, we just managed to find a slightly cheaper one.

You're good to go. I was just wondering if it was you and 2 children or you were married. I don't see any issues now that I see some detail. Yes, they can complain of the $25, but that won't hurt you. Yes, on Form B22A (Means Test), you put down the ACTUAL amount.

[ccsjoe]

I enjoyed this jb. You made me defend some of the stuff, which showed me I can indeed do it. If I can just get an answer regarding the IRS treatment of the installment agreement vs. the automatic stay caused by the filing, I might go at it myself after all.

Again, thanks for challenging me a bit.

[justbroke]

That's why I'm here! Making sure the pro se filers have thought out every scenario that the United States Trustee (UST) or Panel Trustee (Tee) will use to derail the petition.