stayviolation dot com attorneys are WIMPS

[tigergem]

[vent]

I'm trying to get ready to go out of state, and just a little intimidated by the AP process, so I decided to give these guys a call. My case seems pretty cut and dried (to me). I mean seriously, if I didn't think I had a sure bet, I wouldn't even be thinking about an AP. Litigation just isn't one of those things I feel one should take a crap shoot on. I have 18 pages of evidence, (including CMRRs) that the IRS received notice of my bk filing and tried to collect outside of bk ANYWAY.

So anyway, these guys are (sort of but not really) local to me, but they apparently do know my judge and my district and I was hoping they would handle my AP for me so I didn't have to mess with it. This is the response I got back from these guys after I told them everything, including dates and details.

"Successfully suing the IRS is exceptionally difficult. They usually fight to the bitter end. We are a small practice and rarely, if ever, sue governmental entities b/c the long battles become uneconomical. We cannot help you."

WIMPS.

Somehow I seriously doubt the IRS would put up much a fight for the very same "uneconomical" reason. And my proof is so undeniable, I think they would end up looking like idiots if they tried to argue it. What was that I read about a well argued petition?

And people wonder why people file pro se.

[/vent]

[justbroke]

They are stating what is entirely the situation involving cases against the Federal Government. The Federal Government has deep pockets and staff attorneys (Assistant U.S. Attorney) that they can utilize to fight forever. However, if your case is very sound, you just go for summary judgment quickly.

It's always about attrition and whether you can fight the long fight. I mean, that's what settlements are all about.

[tigergem]

Right, that is what I figured too. A quick summary judgment. Whatever. It's no big deal. I'll deal with it later. I have to keep my priorities in order, and right now, that is not near the top of the list.

I know they have deep pockets and endless resources. It is one of my arguments against excusable neglect.

[AlbanyMan]

Dont let too much grass grow under your feet or they will successfully raise "Waiver" as an affirmative Defense. You also must try to correct the situation in writing before you file a violation against any creditor. BTW, you do not have to file an AP a simple motion for contempt and Violation of Stay Wrapped into one motion will do the job and much easier to do than an AP. Just be sure to serve the government properly and dont forget to include damages for legal fees. Pro Se Debtors are entitled to legal fees see in re hudson 2nd circuit. Good luck.

[Flamingo]

I don't think the attorneys were "wimps" I think they were very smart. They knew the costs to pursue the matter would exceed the amount in question. Everyday cases are denied for the same reasoning and everyday cases are settled because continual litigation will just cost much more in the long run.

[AlbanyMan]

I don't think the attorneys were "wimps" I think they were very smart. They knew the costs to pursue the matter would exceed the amount in question. Everyday cases are denied for the same reasoning and everyday cases are settled because continual litigation will just cost much more in the long run.

I agree except if the doccumentation they have support the claim for VOS, than it could be well worth it. Will they settle? Who knowes. Should they get away with illegal activities soley because the matter is too costly for a lawyer to get into and the person has to file pro se- I think not.

Dont forget that being Pro Se has many advantages. Being Pro Se there is no charge to file the Motion or to start an Adversary Proceeding, the court must look at things liberally in the pro se favor.

If the Motion is well pled and it clearly states manditory duties were not followed by the creditor, which would be evidenced by the exhibits and resulted in certain damages such as doubt of the BK Process and Fresh Start as indicated by congress is impared there is a case. Also dont forget as long as the IRS received notice of your BK any act to collect is a "Willfull" Act and that gives you the right to seek attorney fees and other sanctions. Pro Se are entitled to them as well. Just attach a full list of all the work and time you put into the matter, itemize each entry and set a value of something like $125 per hr for preparing the doccuments for court, which includes writing letters to the IRS to cease and legal research at $75 per hour, plus postage, copies, paper and envelopes, phone calls etc. Doccument well.

Dont be afraid because its the government many VOS motions have been granted against the IRS and other government offices, they are just as liable.

[tigergem]

Dont let too much grass grow under your feet or they will successfully raise "Waiver" as an affirmative Defense. You also must try to correct the situation in writing before you file a violation against any creditor. BTW, you do not have to file an AP a simple motion for contempt and Violation of Stay Wrapped into one motion will do the job and much easier to do than an AP. Just be sure to serve the government properly and dont forget to include damages for legal fees. Pro Se Debtors are entitled to legal fees see in re hudson 2nd circuit. Good luck.

Thanks :-) For the encouragement AND the pointers. Much obliged!

[tigergem]

I agree except if the doccumentation they have support the claim for VOS, than it could be well worth it. Will they settle? Who knowes. Should they get away with illegal activities soley because the matter is too costly for a lawyer to get into and the person has to file pro se- I think not.

Dont forget that being Pro Se has many advantages. Being Pro Se there is no charge to file the Motion or to start an Adversary Proceeding, the court must look at things liberally in the pro se favor.

If the Motion is well pled and it clearly states manditory duties were not followed by the creditor, which would be evidenced by the exhibits and resulted in certain damages such as doubt of the BK Process and Fresh Start as indicated by congress is impared there is a case. Also dont forget as long as the IRS received notice of your BK any act to collect is a "Willfull" Act and that gives you the right to seek attorney fees and other sanctions. Pro Se are entitled to them as well. Just attach a full list of all the work and time you put into the matter, itemize each entry and set a value of something like $125 per hr for preparing the doccuments for court, which includes writing letters to the IRS to cease and legal research at $75 per hour, plus postage, copies, paper and envelopes, phone calls etc. Doccument well.

Dont be afraid because its the government many VOS motions have been granted against the IRS and other government offices, they are just as liable.

I have 18 pages of clear evidence that they received notice and continued to try to collect outside of the bankruptcy ANYWAY. I knew about the fees/costs for a pro se filer, but I didn't realize you could ask that much per hour if you are not an attorney. I've put about 80 hours into research and writing on this, and it about drove me crazy in the process. I kept running into cases and articles that tossed in a new "defense tactic" that the IRS likes to try to use that I wanted to pre-emptively prepare for. Can you believe they actually do still argue immunity??? Gimme a break! Your posts have been very helpful and kind, and I appreciate it very much.

[AlbanyMan]

I have 18 pages of clear evidence that they received notice and continued to try to collect outside of the bankruptcy ANYWAY. I knew about the fees/costs for a pro se filer, but I didn't realize you could ask that much per hour if you are not an attorney. I've put about 80 hours into research and writing on this, and it about drove me crazy in the process. I kept running into cases and articles that tossed in a new "defense tactic" that the IRS likes to try to use that I wanted to pre-emptively prepare for. Can you believe they actually do still argue immunity??? Gimme a break! Your posts have been very helpful and kind, and I appreciate it very much.

You will never get as much as an attorney could for fees, it seems the courts will grant about 50% to pro se depending on the case. Most attorneys these days are charging well over 200 per hour. Start high the court will reduce to what it feels is appropriate. Good Luck.

[Rick9972]

Pro Se Debtors are entitled to legal fees see in re hudson 2nd circuit. Good luck.

Can you provide more information about this case?

[AlbanyMan]

Can you provide more information about this case?

[HHM]

We are missing the most fundamental issue here, What exactly did the IRS do?

[tigergem]

We are missing the most fundamental issue here, What exactly did the IRS do?

I'm guessing you mean me and not In re Hudson?

My plan as amended on 01/12/2010 and confirmed on 03/02/2010 did include and provide for full repayment of the 2008 $2500.00 tax liability. My confirmation hearing had been delayed by one month, and the IRS was duly noticed by both myself and the Clerk of the Court of the rescheduled confirmation hearing date and the claims bar date. The IRS did not object to the plan and also did not file a proof of claim by the established bar date of 6/2/2010.

The IRS “Central Insolvency” was also provided (minimally) with the following actual notices pursuant to the Debtor’s bankruptcy proceeding on the following dates, and documentation of each is part of the case and available in PACER:

• Notice of Modified Plan and Schedules, 01/12/2010
  Order Sustaining Valuation of Collateral, 01/22/2010
  Notice by Debtor of Confirmation Hearing Rescheduled, 02/01/10
  Notice by Clerk of Confirmation Hearing Rescheduled, 02/05/10
  Confirmation Report, 03/05/10

one day after

[AlbanyMan]

I am not clear,you filed a claim for IRS.


That Claim was filed Late?


No order was signed approving the late filed claim?

Did anyone object to the claim?


Did IRS amend your late filed claim?

It seems the IRS had full notice of your BK and there is no excuse for not filing a Claim.

Remember if the claim was late it dont count unless the court sayes so.

If you now disagree with that claim you can object any time until discharge.
even to your own claim.

What does your plan say regarding IRS?

Did the Trustee object to the claim yet or start paying it?

Remember just because they failed to file a claim, they are bound by the Stay and plan confermation.

It seems to me that as long as no one amended the claim that you filed, you can just withdraw that claim in writing. You may withdraw any claim you as the debtor file on behalf of another at anytime.

if the plan addresses the IRS based upon that claim, Res Judicata may prevent your removing that claim now.

But any event all debt you owed to the IRS on the Date of BK is stayed when you filed regardless of the claim being filed and they were well aware of your BK evidenced by the information received already once you filed and confirmtion activities.

[tigergem]

I am not clear,you filed a claim for IRS.


That Claim was filed Late?

Yes, filed late by me at the request of my field agent, because the IRS had missed the bar date.

No order was signed approving the late filed claim?

No.

Did anyone object to the claim?

The Trustee, sort of. He disallowed it in the TRCC.

Did IRS amend your late filed claim?

No.

It seems the IRS had full notice of your BK and there is no excuse for not filing a Claim.

Right.

Remember if the claim was late it dont count unless the court sayes so.

If you now disagree with that claim you can object any time until discharge.
even to your own claim.

Not true. The TRCC sets a bar date for objections.

What does your plan say regarding IRS?

It allowed for full payment of the $2500.00 from the outset.

Did the Trustee object to the claim yet or start paying it?

Disallowed it, has not paid any.

Remember just because they failed to file a claim, they are bound by the Stay and plan confermation.

Yeah I know.

It seems to me that as long as no one amended the claim that you filed, you can just withdraw that claim in writing. You may withdraw any claim you as the debtor file on behalf of another at anytime.

That, I did not know. I withdrew the Motion that accompanied it.

if the plan addresses the IRS based upon that claim, Res Judicata may prevent your removing that claim now.

I don't think it matters if I remove the claim or not, since it has been disallowed. But my point was, leading up to them asking me to file the claim on their behalf since they screwed up and missed the bar date, they repeatedly violated the stay by trying to collect it from me and refusing to acknowledge the notices they received, and in that final phone call, they also threatened me with a NOL, but it was just a verbal threat, not written.

But any event all debt you owed to the IRS on the Date of BK is stayed when you filed regardless of the claim being filed and they were well aware of your BK evidenced by the information received already once you filed and confirmtion activities.