New to forum need advice

[tigergem]

Looks like you've gotten some good guidelines from some attorneys. That's cool. Have you subscribed for PACER yet? Via PACER you can go in and ferret out some live (or even discharged!) cases in your district that might have issues similar to your own, as well as get a feel for how your judge rules on such things.

[newbie2]

I'm really short of money, unemployed and I've barely been able to support myself or daughter. We have been underwater for six months, so I'm kind of embarrased to admit, I didn't even have $20 for the nolo book.
.

I'm missing something here. Chapter 13 is also known as the "wage earners plan". Can someone even file a Chapter 13 if there is no income in which to pay in to the plan?

[lgeiger99]

I'm missing something here. Chapter 13 is also known as the "wage earners plan". Can someone even file a Chapter 13 if there is no income in which to pay in to the plan?

Perhaps you didn't mean your post the way it sounds. I have had a hard time of it and I'm not ashamed to say so. It is what it is.

Unemployment is counted as steady income. I am below median income, but there is enough for me to repay a portion of my debt. When I go back to work in my chosen field, my income will increase, I will report it to the trustee and my plan payments will increase accordingly just like anyone elses.

How do your remarks help me in any way or answer any of my questions?
I'm here for bankruptcy support.

[lgeiger99]

Looks like you've gotten some good guidelines from some attorneys. That's cool. Have you subscribed for PACER yet? Via PACER you can go in and ferret out some live (or even discharged!) cases in your district that might have issues similar to your own, as well as get a feel for how your judge rules on such things.

Hi tigergem,

Thanks for mentioning Pacer. I asked the court for permission yesterday.
I didn't realize it can do as much as you are telling me about. Thanks!

[newbie2]

Perhaps you didn't mean your post the way it sounds. I have had a hard time of it and I'm not ashamed to say so. It is what it is.

Unemployment is counted as steady income. I am below median income, but there is enough for me to repay a portion of my debt. When I go back to work in my chosen field, my income will increase, I will report it to the trustee and my plan payments will increase accordingly just like anyone elses.

How do your remarks help me in any way or answer any of my questions?
I'm here for bankruptcy support.

No no no...I asked the question because I think that one of the requirements to have a chapter 13 plan confirmed is that there be a regular income. I don't know if a trustee would allow unemployment income as "regular" income. Others here have reported that they couldn't file a Chapter 13 plan because the only income was unemployment.

I really hate to see you file the plan and go through all of the stress of it only to find out that you can't be confirmed. That was the intent of my question.

Edit: I just looked up this situation and it looks like you can have unemployment income the only income and be confirmed. Perhaps what the others were talking about in previous threads were choosing to wait to file until they had an additional source of income.

Good luck to you, I hope your pro-se petition goes well!

[tigergem]

Hi tigergem,

Thanks for mentioning Pacer. I asked the court for permission yesterday.
I didn't realize it can do as much as you are telling me about. Thanks!

You don't need the court's permission to use pacer. You just sign up on pacer.gov. You need permission to do electronic filing, but that is only for licensed attorneys, and I don't think they will give it to a pro se person.

Yeah. Here's what I found in my district, and you may find it true also in yours. At my confirmation hearing, a catalog of the docket was handed out. It lists all the parties, case number and the nature of the days proceedings. There are several hundred cases docketed for one day! So I can flip to the page that states "objections to claims" and find a case that looks similar to what I want, query that case number on pacer and "voila". Instant samples.

If you can find out when your judge holds hearings, you could go and see if they offer the same sort of thing. Ours were set in a stack at the front of the "pews" (I call them lol) and you were just expected to take one.

[lgeiger99]

Thanks again for the information, tigergem. I really appreciate it.

Now that I'm filed, I have to move quickly. I rejected the lease here and everything I've read says be ready to move then. I've spent the last couple of months downsizing radically as our new place will be smaller. My move date is Monday. The Chapter 13 took up much more of my time then I initially realized it would.

One of the lawyers I spoke to said it would take my landlord three weeks,
but I see no reason to delay. I signed the new lease last week - it's about 45 minutes from where I am now and I can't wait to get out of here. It's getting really hot in Arizona and the new place will be more affordable all around in terms of running the air, being smaller, etc.

On Monday, I'll take a couple of days to get situated and then become better educated on the tax liens and cramming down. When I was filing, there was a younger woman in front of me - papers flying, asking questions that the clerk wouldn't answer and holding her SS card and DL in her other hands which were occupied with a stack of papers. I felt really sorry for her.

Oh, well onto packing for now and executing my move. I keep telling myself and my daughter that everything is going to be fine.

Thanks again!

[lgeiger99]

No no no...I asked the question because I think that one of the requirements to have a chapter 13 plan confirmed is that there be a regular income. I don't know if a trustee would allow unemployment income as "regular" income. Others here have reported that they couldn't file a Chapter 13 plan because the only income was unemployment.

I really hate to see you file the plan and go through all of the stress of it only to find out that you can't be confirmed. That was the intent of my question.

Edit: I just looked up this situation and it looks like you can have unemployment income the only income and be confirmed. Perhaps what the others were talking about in previous threads were choosing to wait to file until they had an additional source of income.

Good luck to you, I hope your pro-se petition goes well!

Hi Newbie2,

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. Before I started, I saw a lawyer and asked the same question about unemployment being considered income and was advised it is. I also researched it on my own and googled it here. I appreciate your update.

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm moving in the next 3 days so it's about to get crazy for me but in another way - physical labor as opposed to being mentally worn out from the filing.

Moving on!

[tigergem]

Oh sorry I must have overlooked this bit. Yes, any regular income... unemployment, social security, whatever... will work for a Ch 13, if a Ch 13 is what works for you. It doesn't have to be earned wages.

[lgeiger99]

Oh sorry I must have overlooked this bit. Yes, any regular income... unemployment, social security, whatever... will work for a Ch 13, if a Ch 13 is what works for you. It doesn't have to be earned wages.

Well, one thing for sure, I am not going to be able to rid my mind of the questions I have around tax liens during my move. I know I'll be researching at midnight while I'm laying in bed with my mind racing.

An interesting fact is that tax liens cannot be removed by Chapter 7, even if the debt is dischargeable, which mine is not due to the two year rule. The liens would attach to future property until some time after the debt is completely and fully paid off. There is no remedy as in CH 13 wherein the bankruptcy has jurisdiction over the IRS.

When I say jurisdiction, I'm referring to two points (#1 the most important to being advantageous to me). Unfortunately, I have to research much more as there is a lot of conflicting information around taxes and liens.

1. When you have tax liens, but they are not secured to property, it looks as if the court can remove the liens after the debt is paid off by the plan.
A sketchier idea that I've been able to find any information on is that since the taxes do not attach to any property, I read it suggested that it could be treated as a unsecured debt (that's why I put it on schedule F to test that theory), which I've been advised is very appropriate for me to do at this point. However, at this juncture I'm not counting on that - I have to research and get more advice.

2. CH 13 court can remove any and all late charges, penalties, etc. unless there is tax fraud, which there is not. What that would like to me is

A. IRS - Original debt $37k - I've paid $26K on it, but still owe 44k due to penalties, late charges, etc.

B. State of CA - Original debt - 10,500 - I've paid 12,500 already and still owe 4400k due to late charges, penalties, etc.

If what I've read is true and late fees and penalties can be removed by the bankruptcy court (worse scenario), then I may be able to finally say that the State of CA is paid in full (in fact, would be overpaid) and I would only owe
$11,500 to the IRS and there is enough in my plan to pay for it over the course of the plan. Upon completion, that lien would be removed. As I mentioned previously, in a Chapter 7 it would not.

Interesting stuff, no?