Ok. Now I'm mad.

[tigergem]

Yes, absolutely. Your time has a monetary value. You can also get damages for the stress, worry, anxiety, embarassment, lost sleep &c caused by their wrongful acts. Those are actuals, not punitives.

I don't think I can do it MS. I thought about it. But even if I were to wait until my doctor appointment next month and go on in there and say I was all stressed up because of problems with the IRS, you know darn well that if we have a hearing and I have to get in front of that judge, he's gonna take one look at me and say BS! I don't get rattled, and that is gonna be obvious. Let's face it, I wouldn't be able to stand up in front of him and present my case or even be able to do this bk in the first place if I was the type to get rattled. I don't think I could convincingly just fall out and play the victim. Notice, in my subject line, I didn't run in here screaming "Heeeelllllllpppp!" (gawd I hate that.) No. I said they made me mad. I'm pretty laid back until somebody does something stupid two or three times to really p* me off, and even then I am very methodical in plotting my revenge. muhahaha!

I'm not really all that worried about it. I'm not anxious. I'm not embarrassed. And I haven't lost a minute of sleep over it. lol. What can I say? It's just a thang. They broke the rules and they need to get slapped.

[walkthaplank]

I would bill them the hourly rate you would bill on a consulting job for your time in dealing with the issue. You aren't billing them a legal fee, but for your time in dealing with their flagrant violation of the BK court's stay and confirmed plan.

With the IRS being a "sophisticated debt collector", what are the odds that the judge sanctions them more heavily along the lines of their claim? Federal Judges have ego's the size of Colorado, it isn't far fetched to see one get extremely upset with a branch of the Federal Gov't deliberately (clearly they know about the filing) violating courts stay and attempting to collect a debt while there is a confirmed plan in place and spanking them mightily.

[tigergem]

Thanks walkthaplank. Yeah that is kinda what I was thinking. The max rate allowed for attorney fees by law is $125/hour. I didn't think it would be unreasonable to request $25.00 per hour, which might sound tame, but my judge is all about "common sense". If I go in greedy, he is gonna slap me, too. He knows darn well that I am not a lawyer and don't have a legal background, so I don't think I can get away with asking too much more than that. But yeah, he himself could deem it higher, along the lines of maxing out the allowable like that other judge did in the other opinion I mentioned. But, if I request (or receive) too much of an award, my trustee is gonna want it, and I might not get the benefit of it at all. Although, you can bet I would fight him for it, because I really need to get some dental work done.

[MSbklawyer]

I'm not really all that worried about it. I'm not anxious. I'm not embarrassed. And I haven't lost a minute of sleep over it. lol. What can I say? It's just a thang. They broke the rules and they need to get slapped.

The negative emotional impact of it doesn't have to put you in the intensive care unit for it to be a valid claim. You said you were angry about it. Some peoples' personalities go that direction; other people get stressed, scared, lose sleep, loss of appetite; others go home and kick the dog. It all falls under the same umbrella of negative emotional impact that someone else's wrongful act has on you. The more severe you claim the impact to be, the harder it would be to prove and the more it would be worth. But to continue to face illegal collection efforts after you have filed bk is going to have some sort of negative emotional impact on you. And it's compensible. It's not going to be a tremendous sum of money given the lack of intensity of the efforts and their short duration, but don't throw it away. The going rate around here for a willful, run-of-the-mill, first-time violation of the stay is $1500 plus attorney's fees. You ought to at least be able to get that, plus the value of your time. One thing is for sure, you won't get it if you don't ask for it. At one extreme, you don't want the judge to be rolling his eyes at you because you ask for a bazillion-gazillion dollars. At the other extreme, you don't want to short-change yourself be offering to go away for $250.

[walkthaplank]

Thanks walkthaplank. Yeah that is kinda what I was thinking. The max rate allowed for attorney fees by law is $125/hour. I didn't think it would be unreasonable to request $25.00 per hour, which might sound tame, but my judge is all about "common sense". If I go in greedy, he is gonna slap me, too. He knows darn well that I am not a lawyer and don't have a legal background, so I don't think I can get away with asking too much more than that. But yeah, he himself could deem it higher, along the lines of maxing out the allowable like that other judge did in the other opinion I mentioned. But, if I request (or receive) too much of an award, my trustee is gonna want it, and I might not get the benefit of it at all. Although, you can bet I would fight him for it, because I really need to get some dental work done.

If you really bill at $25/hour for your consulting business (I really hope you bill more than that, because after taxes that is somewhere around $18/hour before you even get to expenses) than that is what you should bill for your time. Remember, you are taking the same time you could put into trying to find consulting work in order bring them to task. The ONLY reason you are bringing them to task is because of their flagrant violation of the Courts Stay and Order of Confirmation. This isn't an oopsie, they are willfully (yes, I realize it is likely just incompetence, but still) violating a federal court order. Go get em!

[tigergem]

If you really bill at $25/hour for your consulting business (I really hope you bill more than that, because after taxes that is somewhere around $18/hour before you even get to expenses) than that is what you should bill for your time. Remember, you are taking the same time you could put into trying to find consulting work in order bring them to task. The ONLY reason you are bringing them to task is because of their flagrant violation of the Courts Stay and Order of Confirmation. This isn't an oopsie, they are willfully (yes, I realize it is likely just incompetence, but still) violating a federal court order. Go get em!

This is rural Texas. You can't get much more than that on an hourly basis for just about anything, no matter what your expertise. Most people can't even afford that, and I have been known to trade my time for a really good home cooked meal. (Since I live out of my microwave and hate cooking for myself! lol!) Maybe in Dallas or Houston, you can charge more. It's a geographical thing. I used to get a lot more than that when I lived in L.A., but everything's relative. Here, if you take more than $12.50 an hour, you're one of them rich folks.

[tigergem]

The negative emotional impact of it doesn't have to put you in the intensive care unit for it to be a valid claim. You said you were angry about it. Some peoples' personalities go that direction; other people get stressed, scared, lose sleep, loss of appetite; others go home and kick the dog. It all falls under the same umbrella of negative emotional impact that someone else's wrongful act has on you. The more severe you claim the impact to be, the harder it would be to prove and the more it would be worth. But to continue to face illegal collection efforts after you have filed bk is going to have some sort of negative emotional impact on you. And it's compensible. It's not going to be a tremendous sum of money given the lack of intensity of the efforts and their short duration, but don't throw it away. The going rate around here for a willful, run-of-the-mill, first-time violation of the stay is $1500 plus attorney's fees. You ought to at least be able to get that, plus the value of your time. One thing is for sure, you won't get it if you don't ask for it. At one extreme, you don't want the judge to be rolling his eyes at you because you ask for a bazillion-gazillion dollars. At the other extreme, you don't want to short-change yourself be offering to go away for $250.

Does it matter what the dollar value of the claim is relative to the damages I claim? This is only a $2500 tax liability.

[MSbklawyer]

Does it matter what the dollar value of the claim is relative to the damages I claim? This is only a $2500 tax liability.

I wouldn't think so. They can violate the stay as much for an effort to collect $10 as $10,000. But that's a good question.

But as counter-intuitive as it sounds, the IRS is normally some of the most cooperative people you'll ever meet in a BK context. They lay down and roll over and you scratch their belly -- figuratively speaking of course. They are, however, known to go 'pit bull' on you if there is indicia of fraud or tax evasion.

I'm surprised you're having so much trouble with them.

[tigergem]

I don't think I am having a lot of trouble, per se. I think these notices I keep getting in the mail are just computer generated spew, and the representatives that I have gotten on the phone are probably mostly temps hired to fill in on the phone banks for the busy season. Possibly with the exception of the first rep I talked to in February, who was very obliging. But even computer error is no defense against a stay violation.

[doni49]

Tiger,

Just curious--what ever happened with this?

[tigergem]

Nothing yet. I am going to file a motion for rule to show cause and for sanctions for violation of the stay. Oh let me see... this thread is from March. There were more incidents of violation of the stay on their part after that, and fairly recently. The trustee and I have been working through some stuff, so I haven't really addressed it yet. Soon though. I'll post for sure if and when there is any more drama. I suppose there will be with this. It's going to be fun and appropriately complicated, as are most things in my sphere, since I will begin my employment training with them on October 5th. ;-)

[reesemay]

I have read cases where the pro se asks for atty fee's, let the judge decide

[justbroke]

Yes, the pro se debtor can be awarded "attorney" fees, however, it will be consistent with your earning "potential". Don't expect $250/hour if you work at 7-11. There have certainly been pro se "attorneys" (who actually passed and are an active member of the bar association for that State) who have asked for fees and was granted them! "Professional" fees are awarded where they are warranted.

I was going to actually argue a rate of $150/hour -- my billing rate -- in my complaint as damages, but the darned creditor settled the matter before it went to the Judge!