questioning my decision to go Pro Se

[justbroke]

It doesn't have to be substantial abuse. The word substantial was removed from 707(b) as part of the amendments in 2005 (BAPCPA). It is rare that this occurs, but I just saw a very recent case where this occurred. The assets were not "substantial". Serial filings generally are the cause for this.

The court will deal with excusable neglect for what it is. However, frivolous and highly irregular filings may not be excusable when you knew that the information was wrong and you swore to it being accurate.

As a pro se filer, I can not sit here and say... "do whatever you want because they'll be nice to you because your'e pro se". Such is not the case.

[JustFileSuit]

[QUOTE=justbroke;361652]

It doesn't have to be substantial abuse. The word substantial was removed from 707(b) as part of the amendments in 2005 (BAPCPA).

I stand corrected. Pro-se filers take note.

It is rare that this occurs, but I just saw a very recent case where this occurred. The assets were not "substantial". Serial filings generally are the cause for this.

Yup. Serial filings will cause grief. The BK Courts have become exasperated with "serial filers" who are using the technique to indefinitely delay foreclosure (the usual engine that drives serial filings). JustBroke is quite correct to avoid setting yourself up for a situation where you end up in a sequential filing. Always causes problems.

The court will deal with excusable neglect for what it is. However, frivolous and highly irregular filings may not be excusable when you knew that the information was wrong and you swore to it being accurate.

Yup, better to not file a document than to file one where it can be demonstrated esily that what you filed was untruthful.

As a pro se filer, I can not sit here and say... "do whatever you want because they'll be nice to you because your'e pro se". Such is not the case.[/

I did not mean to suggest that a pro-se filer can be cavalier as to his responsibilities to the Court; what I do say is that a pro-se filer is not going to get his feet held to the fire because of items on a Schedule that do not have much impact in the overall scheme of things. Amendments are routinely done, and you do them without needing permission from the Court; you just generate the Amended Schedule and go file it with the Clerk (and a copy to the UST and the trustee, of course).

[justbroke]

I did not mean to suggest that a pro-se filer can be cavalier as to his responsibilities to the Court; what I do say is that a pro-se filer is not going to get his feet held to the fire because of items on a Schedule that do not have much impact in the overall scheme of things. Amendments are routinely done, and you do them without needing permission from the Court; you just generate the Amended Schedule and go file it with the Clerk (and a copy to the UST and the trustee, of course).

Agreed.

I only take this personally, because there are Districts in which you are highly discouraged to file pro se. From the Clerk's office to the Trustee... they keep reminding you or telling you things like "no pro se Chapter 13 debtor in this District has ever been confirmed".

I prefer that we pro se filers submit petitions better than any minimum and better than any "new" attorney. My filing was not flawless, but my pleadings, papers, schedules, oppositions, objections and appearance and knowledge in Court, is probably the reason why the Trustee never "really" looked at my petition (especially the Means Test). When you present yourself as knowing the rules, follow the rules better than the attorneys, and are diligent, this is noticed. On the other hand, the person who doesn't know what they're doing, constantly causing more work for the Clerk/Trustee/Court, and attesting to inaccurate information... is also going to be noticed, but not in the good way.

[tigergem]

Oh wow. My clerk's office told me just the other day "We do have successful Pro Se filers here!"

I went ahead and sent them a christmas card. Just one. Just a card. No goodies. Addressed to "The Clerks, Staff and Honorable Judge Parker"... and signed it "with gratitude" but not with my case number on it lol.

[mtbc]

Our clerks have so far been quite nice. When we filed they had someone go over our paperwork before they were willing to start the filing process, but it didn't take them long to be very satisfied, and it's not as if we had done much more than the sort of careful reading you'd expect. While they warn that you really, really, ought to think about using an attorney, our court (MA) even runs a free pro se debtor clinic thing, which I didn't go to but that, I suppose, shows that they do want to be nice.

[enari]

I pretty much felt I had to file pro-se, and for me it was worth it. I'm still in my redemption hearing, and this is very stressful. It should be over soon. I really, just took a deep breath, read things twice, checked on pacer, and really said a prayer as I submitted my paperwork.

I made one mistake, which the trustee caught and automatically corrected. The rest went smooth, and they've been impresed with my paperwork, but I've been shaking and panicking. It *feels* to me, that the longer it gets drawn out, the more nervous I become.

That's why, I hope I will be done within the week. Also, i am disabled, and the longer this goes on, the greater the chances are that I will get too ill to continue. I'm a little stressed, because I really don't see filing as pro-se and then not being able to accomplish everything because i was 'sick' will help my case.

But, it will be over soon, and for me, worth it.

[JustFileSuit]

No worries, Enari. There are a ton of other guys lined up at the Court House doors, all with even worse tales of woe. Your case will be handled with compassion, I rather suspect. And don't be surprised when it goes smoothly. You aren't exactly Donald Trump! (so, you too have a casino or three going bust?)

[tigergem]

Yeah me too enri. I also have a disability and am scared to death of getting sick again before the 341 or having to take a pain killer and not being able to focus and mess something up. I'm already not feeling so great, and have lost too much weight this past couple weeks, and even though I feel so tired, I often can't seem to get to sleep at night.

I need clarity now, so I am not taking anything for pain or stress.

Somehow I can't imagine anybody doing this pro se because they wanted to.

I just hope for the best. Hang in there. I am sure we will be alright in the end.

[JustFileSuit]

[QUOTE=tigergem;362643]

I need clarity now, so I am not taking anything for pain or stress.

take your meds, bro. The Trustee at the 341 is going to take about six minutes with you, no worries.

[tigergem]

[QUOTE=JustFileSuit;362644]

take your meds, bro. The Trustee at the 341 is going to take about six minutes with you, no worries.

Hey hey there. Watch who you're calling "bro". That's SISTER to you buster.

Can't you tell by my feminine fonts?

[enari]

The trustee part was easy. I don't always know how well I am going to feel, so I try to be prepared as possible. I have a folder with the application, then with the requested information, then info that might be useful, and then, different folders for different scenarios.

That still didn't keep me from not-sleeping, but at least I felt prepared. If I stressed too much before, or made myself sick, by trying for the 'clarity' before, I think I would have wore myself down worse.

But, this is also my third month, and it is wearing me down, the anticipation. The only thing is my redemption, and i really just feel anxious, not due to preperation, but because the resolve in August is fading.

But yeah, take your meds, but maybe lighten up on the day of? Preperation, body, mind, spirit.

Also, I've *seen* some of the people applying, the trustee and judges seems to be pleasantly surprised when someone is at least a little prepared? =)

(i think i just talked myself into calming down, lol)

[tigergem]

Thanks enari for the encouragement.

So. What I am learning so far about my 341.

Be early.

Be ORGANIZED. (o. my. lord.) Well the trustee sent me a checklist of documents to bring. I am working on getting that stuff together. I have most of it. And what he wanted 7 days prior is already there.

And keep my mouth shut except for "Yes Sir" and "No Sir".

I tend to talk a lot when I am nervous, so I will have to pay special attention to that last one.

In case I forgot to mention - - I am SO GRATEFUL for all the people who post so much supportive and helpful information on this forum. Thank y'all!

[enari]

Two weeks before my 341 hearing, I called my trustee and was told I would be contacted with a check list. I never received the check-list, and I failed to send most of my stuff in 7 days earlier, however, I knew what he wanted, and, like I said, I had folders.

So, really, since I am a total novice, anything I had a question about, I printed out and had in separate folders. I wasn't really sure how to prove lack of income, so I printed a list of all deposits. I kept copies of banks that shut down my accounts and wouldn't let me have online access.

Copies of disability statements, foodstamp history, really, more than anything that could be needed, but for every scenario my mind played out. Did I mention that I am a little obsessive?

So when I came, and he pointed out I didn't have paperwork, I was able to open a folder and hand it to him. When he asked for more proof, I opened another folder. A lot wasn't needed, but it went really smoothly, and it was not a scary experience for me at all.

I find for me, writing things out is easier than talking. So I prepare everything by paper, as much as possible, even guess work. Like, what I am doing now is a little more complicated, and in my head, I see it as going a few different ways, so I have written everything out for those different ways & I will show it to the help desk, and use what will work best given the circumstances.

I doubt you have to worry about that. =D

So breathe - your 341 is in move than 6 days. relax, enjoy christmas, rest, get well, don't obsess, its gonna go as it is going to go.

good luck

[OnTheRocks]

Just do your best and be totally honest. I worried about losing airmiles and all kinds of stupid stuff, but I reached a point when I didn't care anymore, all I wanted was relief, and I would give any assets up. It's a shit deal no matter how you look at it, but if you are honest you should be fine. If you are obviously no asset they won't waste time on you.

Best of luck.

[JustFileSuit]

tigergem;362646]

Hey hey there. Watch who you're calling "bro". That's SISTER to you buster.

Ha! Love it! OK everybody, it's "SISTER" to tigergem!!!