Above median filiers having success Pro Se??

[kcfaninin]

I would be interested to hear successful or unsuccsessfull stories on filing Pro Se if you are an above median income filer. We have been through 3 attorneys, paid retaining fee to two of them and we get to the point right before filing and they ignore us. So, we drop them and move on to the next.

Office isn't responding to emails and refusing to take phone calls. Was on hold yesterday for 23 minutes to speak to legal assistant and I finally hung up. Called back and was transfered to voice mail requesting a return call and NOTHING!!

The one we are currently working with, told me to quit my part time job in order to decrease some of our income, now we are left hanging with no further direction on where to go from here.

We have been trying to file since September. We are to the point now, we are considering filing Pro Se. We have documented expenses to file a Ch 7 even though we are above the median income. We have a DMI of -$620


Any thoughts or advise woudl be appreciated.

Thanks!!

[justbroke]

Over-the-median and filing a pro se Chapter 7 can be intimidating... in the least! You are certainly going to draw scrutiny from the United States Trustee (UST). I would caution you that the UST's attorney may tell you things, that aren't even true (like when the UST told teachermomma, another poster here, that they could file Chapter 13 with more than $336K in unsecured debt).

I do think we have a couple of folks who have filed over-the-median, but I believe those cases were filed through an attorney.

Your biggest issue will be on your Schedule J expenses versus your Form B22A (Means Test). You would need to do a lot of case research for your District to see just how the UST attacks cases that are considered an "abuse". Specifically look for cases that are dismissed under 11 USC 707(b)(3), whether they were dismissed or not. You really want to know the cases that weren't dismissed, because you need to know how the UST thinks.

Also, most USTs have their own version of the Means Test (Form B22A) that compares your numbers to "their" numbers. They usually submit this as evidence with their motion to dismiss. It's a spreadsheet that basically allows the UST to "adjust" your numbers to reality. I would mimic this just to see the what ifs. For example, what if the UST doesn't like this particular number, then what does that do to me.

Other considerations...

• Are you surrendering secured property that you're including in your Means Test? This is one of the biggest reasons for an 11 USC 707(b)(3)(B) motion to dismiss for "totality of circumstances".
• Are you exceeding IRS limits in any category?
• What are your transportation expenses like? Does Schedule J match the Means Test?
• What cases can you cite for your District, Appellate Panel, Circuit and or other cases that help you claim a particular expense?

[wipetheslate]

I'm scared to file!

About $15K above median, although I have a lot of deductions taken out that I have no control over (mandatory health insurance & retirement contributions).

At my preliminary meeting the counselor said I'd be fine and told me that a lot of the folks that file pro se are clueless. But I'm just scared $***less to actually file as I'm afraid I'm going to get extra scrutiny from the UST. I've searched Pacer a bit and haven't found any above-median cases yet. But I don't want to wrack up a big bill. Then again, might as well spend $1-200 to ensure my ducks are in a row.

The counselor did give me the name of a low cost attorney that charges $600. I should really make an appointment and just meet with the guy. I'm worried that I'm going to get what I paid for and end up filing pro se anyway.

What happens if I file and the UST says no? Do I still have the black mark on my credit report but none of the relief?

[HHM]

Over median and filing pro se = get gun, shoot self in foot.

Honestly, why are you filing pro se. If you are over median, you CAN afford an attorney. You just don't "want" too. If you are not willing to make a commitment ( a financial commitment ) to have a successful BK, then no one here, or anywhere can help you.

You are absolutely right, you get what you pay for, filing pro se, with all the land mines of being over median and only paying the $299 filing fee; yeah, you get what you pay for.

As for black mark, as soon as you FILE the case, the BK is public record, it doesn't matter at that point if the case is dismissed.

[justbroke]

I've searched Pacer a bit and haven't found any above-median cases yet.

Now you see that there aren't many in your District. Very telling, isn't it.

As a suggestion, see if you can access your Court's calendar. if you can, search it for cases that have 11 USC 707(b) motions to dismiss (just search for 707(b)). These are probably the over-the-median cases. Write down the case numbers, and then research those. Do not just use PACER as a "browse" function. Will cost you $$$$$.

The counselor did give me the name of a low cost attorney that charges $600. I should really make an appointment and just meet with the guy. I'm worried that I'm going to get what I paid for and end up filing pro se anyway.

I don't know if you're going to get $600 for a over-the-median case.

What happens if I file and the UST says no? Do I still have the black mark on my credit report but none of the relief?

Yes, you keep the black mark for 10 years.

Over median and filing pro se = get gun, shoot self in foot.

HHM forgot to add...

Chamber next round, point at other foot, pull trigger.

Know that you will be dealing with an Attorney working for the UST, not the UST herself. Make no mistake, this attorney works for the UST and will do everything to challenge every expense. They may seem like a friend, but they are not. They will probably suggest you "just convert to Chapter 13". They are an adversary. I would heed HHM's advice and figure out how to pay an attorney.

What's your timeline to file?

[kcfaninin]

Over median and filing pro se = get gun, shoot self in foot.

Honestly, why are you filing pro se. If you are over median, you CAN afford an attorney. You just don't "want" too. If you are not willing to make a commitment ( a financial commitment ) to have a successful BK, then no one here, or anywhere can help you.

You are absolutely right, you get what you pay for, filing pro se, with all the land mines of being over median and only paying the $299 filing fee; yeah, you get what you pay for.

As for black mark, as soon as you FILE the case, the BK is public record, it doesn't matter at that point if the case is dismissed.

HHM,
We were considering filing Pro Se because the attorneys we have met with seem to never get back with us in a timely manner. We retained one attorney back in June. He told us to decrease our income by quitting our part time jobs and we would be ready to file a 7 in October. Did what he said and touched base with him in September and he wanted to throw us into a Chapter 13.

We emailed him with questions, left voice mails with the office and nobody has contacted us since. That was 3 months ago and we even PAID him!!

Got a second opinion through a free consultation, turned all our paper work in and same thing. The office doesn't reply to emails and never returns phone calls. So, what's a person to do?? We thought we could get the job done faster if we do it ourselves. It's NOT that we don't want to pay the fees, we do and we did!!!

[wipetheslate]

Over median and filing pro se = get gun, shoot self in foot.

Honestly, why are you filing pro se. If you are over median, you CAN afford an attorney. You just don't "want" too. If you are not willing to make a commitment ( a financial commitment ) to have a successful BK, then no one here, or anywhere can help you.

You are absolutely right, you get what you pay for, filing pro se, with all the land mines of being over median and only paying the $299 filing fee; yeah, you get what you pay for.

As for black mark, as soon as you FILE the case, the BK is public record, it doesn't matter at that point if the case is dismissed.

Good god I'm not sure what I did to deserve that nasty response. When I made the remark of getting what I paid for I was referring to the low-cost attorney, not filing myself. I.e., I'd pay the attorney $600 and still end up filing pro se.

Funny, the credit counselor found I didn't have any money left over at the end of the month. And that's renting a studio apartment. How would you know I can *afford* an attorney?

[justbroke]

Keep shopping for attorneys. Perhaps, someday, we'll come up with a checklist of things to ask an attorney. Many are very busy, so you should ask questions about caseload, and especially about how quickly they can file your case!

It seems like you are taking it slow and easy and not really pushing the issue. I would have been all over the attorney (showing up at his office), if s/he took a retainer and never returned any calls, for months.

Funny, the credit counselor found I didn't have any money left over at the end of the month. And that's renting a studio apartment. How would you know I can *afford* an attorney?

Many people find the money by stop paying on unsecured debt. If you're surrendering your car, you stop paying that too. Since you don't own a home, you won't be surrendering that so it doesn't matter.

If you're over-the-median income for your State and have no money left after paying income tax, health insurance, for your apartment and transportation... something is very wrong.

HHM is blunt and to the point, but he does make a point. Realize that I'm a pro se filer, and I'm here advising you to find a way to file through an attorney.

[wipetheslate]

HHM was being nasty to me, not you.

[wipetheslate]

Well, I haven't done much searching. And I would guess most are going to be below median. So, statistically it didn't seem very surprising.

Thanks for the 11 USC 707(b) tip.

I know I can handle the pro se filing on my own and get all the forms filled out correctly. But from what I've read the pro se filings get extra scrutiny, so I had been strongly considering an attorney to grease the wheels so to speak.

Hence my post in this thread. Didn't expect to offend HHM, Esq.

Now you see that there aren't many in your District. Very telling, isn't it.

As a suggestion, see if you can access your Court's calendar. if you can, search it for cases that have 11 USC 707(b) motions to dismiss (just search for 707(b)). These are probably the over-the-median cases. Write down the case numbers, and then research those. Do not just use PACER as a "browse" function. Will cost you $$$$$.

I don't know if you're going to get $600 for a over-the-median case.

Yes, you keep the black mark for 10 years.

HHM forgot to add...

Chamber next round, point at other foot, pull trigger.

Know that you will be dealing with an Attorney working for the UST, not the UST herself. Make no mistake, this attorney works for the UST and will do everything to challenge every expense. They may seem like a friend, but they are not. They will probably suggest you "just convert to Chapter 13". They are an adversary. I would head HHM's advice and figure out how to pay an attorney.

What's your timeline to file?

[justbroke]

I know I can handle the pro se filing on my own and get all the forms filled out correctly. But from what I've read the pro se filings get extra scrutiny, so I had been strongly considering an attorney to grease the wheels so to speak.

It's not about the forms, it's about the litigation that you will probably get into. This thread is getting confusing, because now I can't tell your situation from the original poster's situation.

[wipetheslate]

If you're over-the-median income for your State and have no money left after paying income tax, health insurance, for your apartment and transportation... something is very wrong.

Yea, no shit. I live in Honolulu, currently the city with the least affordable housing in the whole country. Housing prices doubled within a matter of only 4 years. And guess what, professional salaries are often lower than comparable salaries on the mainland. And when I say lower, I mean lower than what someone in the midwest would get paid, not in reference to NYC or San Fran salaries, which we lag behind by tens of thousands of dollars.

Okay. I'm done with this forum.

[kcfaninin]

HHM was being nasty to me, not you.

I know, HHM has responded to many of my posts in the past and has been very "blunt", rude if you ask me. But, I guess when you post in an open forum like this, you'll encounter all sorts of personalities. You just have to read between the lines and seek out his advise and ignore the bluntness. He does have some good suggestions at times.

[justbroke]

I live in Honolulu, currently the city with the least affordable housing in the whole country. Housing prices doubled within a matter of only 4 years.

Trying to help. You posted no information about your income, family size, housing, cars, expenses, and we can only guess. There are very experienced people on here that includes attorneys, paralegals, and in pro per filers that have a combined experience beyond any practicing attorney.

And when I wrote "there's something very wrong", you came back with Honolulu has very expensive housing. Yep, I was right... something is wrong... Honolulu's lack of affordable housing.

Filing pro se is no joke, and this is the only forum that you'll find with experienced people... should you decide to go that way.

Good luck.

[HHM]

I am not trying to be nasty, (I suppose my darker sense of humor doesn't translate well on a forum), but I do try to bring some perspective. In any event, I was simply trying to make the point that your "odds" of success on a pro se over median case are very slim. And that generally, by cutting payments to creditors, getting on a good budget, any over median income earner can scrape up the money to file BK. After all, think about what over median means, it means that you make more money than 50% of the people in your state.

The fact is, "most" people who say they cannot afford an attorney, really can, they just haven't really sat down to figure it out and make the commitment to do so. Or, like some posters in this forum (not you guys), are too stubborn and think they are smart enough to do it on their own and simply don't want to hire an attorney. Those are the people that end up with 707 motions to dismiss, the UST going after grand ma for the money the debtor paid back before filing BK, and losing their cars in BK.

Also, with out any information about your circumstances, all we can do is offer our insight based on the information at hand, until you post more info, you will only get the insight that the information you provided will allow. So, being over median, stating your cannot afford an attorney, and thinking of going pro se...based on that info, yeah, BAD IDEA.