schedule j

[lsmartin]

At my 341 meeting the trustee staff lawyer repeatedly suggested that I seek out an lawyers advice even though and I quote",my paperwork was impeccable and better than some lawyers work He had seen)! He subsequently gave Me three references.
He objected to My payment plan amount of $240.00 a month which I derived from the disposable income figure on the form b22c.
My disposable income figure on schedule j however is $1,250.00 and He intimated that a lawyer could save Me money on this form.
How? I filled out scedule j as honestly as I could with the possible exception of item 8.transportation. I pay cash for My cars and do My own repair work but don't normally keep all of My reciepts,so I only put down what We normally spend on gasoline.
Can You use irs standards on scedule j?

[justbroke]

Many Trustees will reconcile Schedule J against your DMI on Form B22C. However, the law is clear in that Form B22C (which determines the DMI) is what you pay. However, comparing the two forms is prudent and a good test for the Trustee to use.

While I can't tell you to use the IRS limits or use your actuals, everything should be defensible on Schedule J. You may have missed things like hair care, some light entertainment, magazine subscriptions, childcare, car repairs, car operating costs (not repairs) insurance (health, home, apartment, car, life), gifts (reasonable), charitable contributions, home owner association fees, professional dues, mandatory union dues, parking fees, commuting fees (for work), child programs (field trips, school supplies, etc). Schedule J is much more unstructured, so you may not include things that are more structures and lumped together on B22C.

While your Trustee may have stated that they will object because they don't "think" that you are committing all of your disposable monthly income (DMI) to the plan... they "said" the same thing to me at my 341, but never actually objected to my plan! It was confirmed without objection from the Trustee.

As far as the cars, did you take the Ownership Allowance for the cars on Form B22C? Many Districts don't allow that when you own the cars outright, unless the cars are more than 5 years old or about 75,000 miles (don't quote me). Even then, in the Districts that allow this, they don't allow the entire IRS allowance.

[lsmartin]

To "justbroke" inre DMI

On 5-16-09 You replied to a thread of mine titled " schedule j". In your reply you stated that the law was clear that the form b22c's DMI was used to determine the repayment amount. Could you tell me where I could find the staute that says this? or maybe a site that contains court decisions in regards to this? Thank You for your past posts,you have been very helpful.

[justbroke]

On 5-16-09 You replied to a thread of mine titled " schedule j". In your reply you stated that the law was clear that the form b22c's DMI was used to determine the repayment amount. Could you tell me where I could find the staute that says this? or maybe a site that contains court decisions in regards to this? Thank You for your past posts,you have been very helpful.

Well, the Bankruptcy Code is clear, but yet there are still Bankruptcy Districts that think they can use Schedule I less Schedule J expenses for over the median income debtors.

I either was writing too fast, but there is some more clarity I'd offer. I should not have been so "this is the case" or "matter of fact" about how disposable monthly income (DMI) or payments are calculated.

Most Districts take the DMI from Form B22C and use that as your unsecured payment. However, as I posted earlier, looking at Schedule J is a good indicator as to what your actual expenses are. The Trustee may be trying to squeeze you in that the DMI on Form B22C almost never equals the number on Schedule J (income - expense). Mine is like yours, in that my Schedule J was about $1,200 and my B22C was $56 (my first B22C). I think that's why the Trustee said that I might not be committing all my disposable income to the Plan. However, they didn't even object to my Plan. Probably because they get $530+ a month. If I wasn't paying the Trustee, that $530 would be going to the unsecured creditors. LOL

Remember, Schedule J, doesn't include the Trustee's fee for "managing" your plan (their 5-10%). It also doesn't include payments for arrears on secured debt you're keeping.

Are you surrendering anything?

I would just reconcile the two and just prepare to fight them with all your ammunition.

Did they file a formal objection to confirmation? What District or Circuit are you in?

[lsmartin]

Thanks for your quick reply.No I'm not surrendering anything. My case is pretty simple,just three credit crds and a handfull of Dr. bills. I filed an amended J, bringing j's DMI down from $1,250.00 to $510.00,but He objected to that because I did'nt file an amended I also. I did'nt think that was necessary since it did'nt change. So I'm going to refile everything in the morning. This guy REALLY does'nt like Pro Se filers I'm afraid so I guess I'll just have to take it one objection at a time. Thanks a lot for your help.

[justbroke]

Thanks for your quick reply.No I'm not surrendering anything. My case is pretty simple,just three credit crds and a handfull of Dr. bills. I filed an amended J, bringing j's DMI down from $1,250.00 to $510.00,but He objected to that because I did'nt file an amended I also. I did'nt think that was necessary since it did'nt change. So I'm going to refile everything in the morning. This guy REALLY does'nt like Pro Se filers I'm afraid so I guess I'll just have to take it one objection at a time. Thanks a lot for your help.

Many Districts have "unwritten" rules (I call them local customs rather than local rules). Sounds like one of the local customs is to always submit an amended Schedule I and Schedule J together (even it both didn't change).

Many Trustees get a bone about pro se filers usually because their paperwork is not in good order, don't follow local rules/customs, and generally cause more work for the Trustee.

While I don't defend a Trustee who takes a dislike to pro se filers, I can understand their fury. I, fortunately, have had near impeccable paperwork and my Trustee never questioned anything that I did. Is it just an amenable Trustee? Is it just that I haven't hit that wall yet? I don't know. But, alas, I can see the issues.

[justbroke]

This just came in my inbox and I submit it for your reading pleasure. Trustees don't like errors in paperwork. Many of them, as indicated in the article below, will usually make polite "sarcastic" remarks. Looks like this Trustee, on this day, was mad at everyone!

http://www.************************/...e-too-careful/
When Preparing for Bankruptcy, You Can’t Be Too Careful


I was sitting in bankruptcy court this morning, waiting for my cases to be called, when something unusual caught my attention. The trustee who was presiding made a very sarcastic remark.

Now, I have to tell you, for some trustees that wouldn’t seem unusual. This particular trustee, however, is usually the soul of polite good humor. So I tuned in to see what had her spoiled her good temper.

Turns out there was a very fundamental error in the paperwork in the case. The debtor’s paperwork reported that she was married, but she is, in fact, single. That meant that all the numbers in all the calculations were wrong, and a large part of the budget and related paperwork would have to be done again.

Everyone makes mistakes once in a while (I am personally the dumb mistake champ) but this one was basic, and should have been easy to avoid. The trustee’s ire was directed primarily at the debtor’s attorney, but it is certainly something that anyone proofreading the paperwork should have caught. Including the debtor, who signed it.

One of your primary goals in filing bankruptcy should be to avoid annoying your trustee. And bad information annoys your trustee. Admittedly, there are some things that are just out of your control, but one thing that is squarely, and solely, in the debtor’s control is to proofread the paperwork that is filed in your case. No one else knows your situation like you do, and while you have every right to expect that the information you provide to your attorney will be correctly transcribed, you have the ability, and the duty, to read through it carefully to make sure that the paperwork is a true and correct as you can make it.

Your case cannot be filed until you have signed all the documentation, and you shouldn’t sign until you know the information is as true and correct as you can make it. You certainly have the obligation to read it carefully enough to determine that there is not such an obvious error as misstating your marital status.

But more than annoying your trustee, think of what it says about your case when you don’t read and correct your paperwork. It says, loud and clear, that you haven’t been careful, and that the trustee better look for other errors. Bankruptcy paperwork is signed under oath, under penalty of perjury, so It also says that you don’t take the oath very seriously. It will make your trustee wonder what else you might have omitted or misstated. Even if it’s the only mistake you make, do you really want to set yourself up for that kind of scrutiny?

It may have become habitual with some people to just sign what is presented to them. After all, that may be a part of why you ended up in bankruptcy in the first place–you may have signed loan agreements, mortgages, and credit card agreements that you didn’t read or fully understand.

Well, now is the time to change that habit. A good, experienced bankruptcy attorney will encourage you to read and understand the paperwork as much as possible. After all, he doesn’t want to be on the wrong side of a trustee tongue-lashing, either. Even if you filed your paperwork in a hurry, you can always review it and correct any errors later. And if you are sitting in court listening to someone else being chastised for not filing correct information, I know you’ll be glad you did.

[lsmartin]

Thanks again justbroke! I take it that I should add the Trustees per centage onto my repayment amount? That last post told me volumns,the guy I'm dealing with just had all his toe nails surgically removed and is limping around in sandals!! Thanks again!.

[deadbroke99]

This just came in my inbox and I submit it for your reading pleasure. Trustees don't like errors in paperwork. Many of them, as indicated in the article below, will usually make polite "sarcastic" remarks. Looks like this Trustee, on this day, was mad at everyone!

http://www.************************/...e-too-careful/

One of your primary goals in filing bankruptcy should be to avoid annoying your trustee.

This is funny, I know this attorney..lol

[bklawn]

Many Trustees will reconcile Schedule J against your DMI on Form B22C. However, the law is clear in that Form B22C (which determines the DMI) is what you pay. However, comparing the two forms is prudent and a good test for the Trustee to use.

While I can't tell you to use the IRS limits or use your actuals, everything should be defensible on Schedule J. You may have missed things like hair care, some light entertainment, magazine subscriptions, childcare, car repairs, car operating costs (not repairs) insurance (health, home, apartment, car, life), gifts (reasonable), charitable contributions, home owner association fees, professional dues, mandatory union dues, parking fees, commuting fees (for work), child programs (field trips, school supplies, etc). Schedule J is much more unstructured, so you may not include things that are more structures and lumped together on B22C.

While your Trustee may have stated that they will object because they don't "think" that you are committing all of your disposable monthly income (DMI) to the plan... they "said" the same thing to me at my 341, but never actually objected to my plan! It was confirmed without objection from the Trustee.

As far as the cars, did you take the Ownership Allowance for the cars on Form B22C? Many Districts don't allow that when you own the cars outright, unless the cars are more than 5 years old or about 75,000 miles (don't quote me). Even then, in the Districts that allow this, they don't allow the entire IRS allowance.

just broke is schedule j montly income for that month or still the six months?

[justbroke]

just broke is schedule j montly income for that month or still the six months?

This is, again, District specific. The local rules/customs vary. Many Districts want it to be the same six-month average. Other Districts say it's a current view with a slant toward the future. You would have to find out what your Trustee likes to see.

For example, there are Trustees that require the attorney or debtor to take their prior year refund (if any), divide it by 12, and add it into their monthly income amount on Schedule I.

[bklawn]

This is, again, District specific. The local rules/customs vary. Many Districts want it to be the same six-month average. Other Districts say it's a current view with a slant toward the future. You would have to find out what your Trustee likes to see.

For example, there are Trustees that require the attorney or debtor to take their prior year refund (if any), divide it by 12, and add it into their monthly income amount on Schedule I.

Thanks I'm in northern District Georgia

[bklawn]

This is, again, District specific. The local rules/customs vary. Many Districts want it to be the same six-month average. Other Districts say it's a current view with a slant toward the future. You would have to find out what your Trustee likes to see.

For example, there are Trustees that require the attorney or debtor to take their prior year refund (if any), divide it by 12, and add it into their monthly income amount on Schedule I.

Also like others post states, the Schedule I and J is more net income for some reason. I think because my six month avg was when i was making more money but now it is a lot less because of no overtime any more.

[justbroke]

Also like others post states, the Schedule I and J is more net income for some reason. I think because my six month avg was when i was making more money but now it is a lot less because of no overtime any more.

Personally, I think they should have got rid of Schedule I/J when they created the Means Test (Form B22A/C).

[bklawn]

Personally, I think they should have got rid of Schedule I/J when they created the Means Test (Form B22A/C).

Thanks justbroke.. I love this website.. It keeps you up to date..