Filing pro se or not?

[runforcover]

Do It Yourself?

I have read some thoughts on the BK Forum that have me thinking. Does anyone know of these online full service bk preparers? They do seem better than doing it yourself.

[removed URL, we do not support online doc prep services]

[justbroke]

I used one of these services and they had a similar "guarantee"...

Our documents are always up-to-date and accepted in every bankruptcy court in every state. We guarantee it.

There documents are indeed "accepted" in every bankruptcy court. However, the numbers they used on the documents were NOT up to date.

It was helpful though, in that it did put together the package of things I needed, then I had to go through and modify a bunch of the forms (manually). I don't think it's worth $200 or even $149 for this "service".

Many of these "preparers" are really software driven. They have a website where you answer hundreds of questions. Then the software generates the filing package in PDF format. Again, it was useful for me, but I think I paid $200 last year for the Chapter 13 services.

They have poor customer support and would not even respond to me when I told them there software had the wrong numbers (BACPA Allowable Limits from the UST). They did respond to my other questions related to entering information into their site. They also never responded when I asked for a refund since their numbers were wrong.

Caveat Emptor

[runforcover]

Is it possible?

[I]Is it possible to successfully navigate through a simple chap 7 with an online, full service preparer? If not, then is there a better way to get the paperwork done? I mean, without coughing up a lung for an attorney.
These two seems interesting. I have found good reports in regards to their claims.

[removed URL's, we do not support online doc prep services]

[justbroke]

As HHM (a moderator) already edited out your two posting, please read carefully what I wrote above. I really do mean Caveat Emptor when I write it. There's a reason this site doesn't "support" or "endorse" these preparers.

You are better off finding a local Paralegal who does bankruptcy prep work.

[runforcover]

My apologies

I did not nor do I know what "Caveat Emptor" means. I am just looking for answers. I have spent quite some time just trying to ask a question. Can't find a thread to do so. I was unaware of the hostility towards those services. Thanks for your effort, I guess. You folks know of another place I can find answers? Good luck with your forum.

[justbroke]

I did not nor do I know what "Caveat Emptor" means. I am just looking for answers. I have spent quite some time just trying to ask a question. Can't find a thread to do so. I was unaware of the hostility towards those services. Thanks for your effort, I guess. You folks know of another place I can find answers? Good luck with your forum.

I believe that I was very specific with answering your question.

Again

• Again, I have used one of those services.
• I did not have very good service from them.
• You may find it better to use a local service provider (preparer who is a paralegal).
• It's the site, not myself, that prevents "advertising" from third party sites that have not been endorsed by the site.
• Because of the specific issues with these types of on-line "preparers", the site will probably never endorse or encourage someone to use one of them.
• From my personal experience, this is probably a good thing that they don't.
• Those sites cannot provide any legal assistance, and they charge as much as a paralegal would charge you. Yet, you don't get great support and can be literally stuck all weekend (as I was when preparing mine) waiting for an answer to a "bug" in their software. As a point of fact, they never answered several of my questions -- regarding inaccurate data -- and I had to file after 7 days of waiting for an answer. (Not that a human/paralegal won't leave you hanging).

For those reasons, i wrote "Caveat Emptor" which is Latin -- and I thought universal -- for "Buyer Beware".

As I wrote earlier, it was helpful in showing me what the complete package looked like... but I ended up doing much of the package by hand (fillable PDFs from the Bankruptcy District website).

(Note: all of the forms are available from your local District's website anyhow.)

[runforcover]

I understand...now

I understand, it makes sense, advertising sites. I have seen so many urls on this forum that I did not think it was an issue. "Buyer Beware"...ok. So perhaps I should search out a paralegal. Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site. It seems to be a more solid one. I just went through 3 other forums and read a few moderator answers. I know more than they do. But I got the main thrust of that info here. So, I will keep reading. Maybe I will find a way to ask questions in a new thread or maybe I will come across one that's kinda like the questions I have.

[justbroke]

I understand, it makes sense, advertising sites. I have seen so many urls on this forum that I did not think it was an issue. "Buyer Beware"...ok. So perhaps I should search out a paralegal. Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site. It seems to be a more solid one. I just went through 3 other forums and read a few moderator answers. I know more than they do. But I got the main thrust of that info here. So, I will keep reading. Maybe I will find a way to ask questions in a new thread or maybe I will come across one that's kinda like the questions I have.

Welcome to the Forum. This really is the best one.

You can start any question you want (new thread). Just try to put it into the correct section of the site, as some people only read certain sections. I tend to stick to General, General Bankruptcy Talk, Chapter 7, Chapter 13, and the Pro Se forums... although I do look around somewhat.

You are free to ask any question you like. However, please do not open an "old" discussion because it appears to be like your question. This is discouraged and the moderators will tell you when you do that.

If you are filing pro se then you should ask your questions in the Pro Se / Pro Per section of the website. It was specifically created for people like you and I... and I read and participate in the sub-forum significantly.

[HHM]

Umm, when you click into any particular title thread, Pro Se filing, Chapter 7, General Bankruptcy etc, there is a button at the top left that says, New Thread, click on that and you start your own question.

[dingdong]

Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site.

Don't feel bad, I just caught on to the "Subscrbe" function and I have been posting here for 6 months. Ya gotta start somewhere in the forum world.

Don't take any mod edits as personal attacks, they are just doing their jobs, I goofed many times with posting issues when I first started using forums too, the mods will just tell you about the rules and then move on. They kind of have to be succint or they would be spending half their lives writing lengthy posts about forum rules.

Welcome and ask any questions you need to, the people here are very helpful.

DD

[runforcover]

Thanx DD

I have been asking and getting great answers. I think the mods soon will have their hands full. If cap and trade becomes law, there may be a whole lot more personal and business bankruptcies. That is, when ALL energy costs double almost overnight.
I still have more to learn and I will keep reading. Thanx for your reasoning and observations.

[TheAbyss]

You are better off finding a local Paralegal who does bankruptcy prep work.

What's the best way to search for one online? I just tried several google searches, for Paralegal services in my state, with bad results. What are good keywords to use?

[justbroke]

What's the best way to search for one online? I just tried several google searches, for Paralegal services in my state, with bad results. What are good keywords to use?

I'm not sure many advertise. The real problem in this area, of non-attorneys preparing petitions, is any appearance that the non-attorney counseled or otherwise instructed the Debtor what to put on the paper.

A paralegal can't even, technically, provide a "checklist" or summary sheet for a debtor to complete! The Paralegal can only hand the debtor the requisite (official) forms!

Imagine handing a B22A/B22C to an average debtor and say complete this? Imagine not being to answer the question as to whether they should include the car or not? Trustees have been looking into this non-attorney assistance and have brought the full power of the court upon those who continue to do it. I think there are few (paralegals) who will do this outside an attorney's practice (as the attorney's clerk/assistant).

[TheAbyss]

I'm not sure many advertise. The real problem in this area, of non-attorneys preparing petitions, is any appearance that the non-attorney counseled or otherwise instructed the Debtor what to put on the paper.

A paralegal can't even, technically, provide a "checklist" or summary sheet for a debtor to complete! The Paralegal can only hand the debtor the requisite (official) forms!

Imagine handing a B22A/B22C to an average debtor and say complete this? Imagine not being to answer the question as to whether they should include the car or not? Trustees have been looking into this non-attorney assistance and have brought the full power of the court upon those who continue to do it. I think there are few (paralegals) who will do this outside an attorney's practice (as the attorney's clerk/assistant).

I guess what you're saying is that I have to find one to help me, secretly? It SHOULDN'T be Illegal for an experienced Paralegal to offer advice, and to help people file bankruptcy. On a buyer beware basis. Lawyers are a bunch of overpriced douchbags. They've lobbied to do everything possible, to squash competition, and prevent people from seeking alternatives. Just ranting out of frustration, here...

[HHM]

I guess what you're saying is that I have to find one to help me, secretly? It SHOULDN'T be Illegal for an experienced Paralegal to offer advice, and to help people file bankruptcy. On a buyer beware basis. Lawyers are a bunch of overpriced douchbags. They've lobbied to do everything possible, to squash competition, and prevent people from seeking alternatives. Just ranting out of frustration, here...

LOL, just because you can't afford a lawyer (or aren't willing to figure out how to afford a lawyer), doesn't mean they are "overpriced". Are Doctor's overpriced douchbags? Are tile setters overpriced, are drywall guys overpriced.

I go back and forth on this issue with doc prep para legals. In principal, I belevie competition is good. However, these new regulations about para legal doc prep came more from the BK judges, not the BK Attorneys, as more of a consumer protection issue. Before 2005, these services marketing was borderline because they were leading consumers to beleive they were getting "almost" the same level of service as an attorney, which was not the case. Also, frankly, most of these doc prep services do a crap job, or more accurately, it's not that they do a bad job, but the info they put on the forms is only as good as the info the debtor provides, and without legal guidance to understand the questions on SOFA (Statement of Financial Affairs), or understand what is an acceptable budget, these petitions that get prepared are very risky for the debtor.