Filing pro se or not?

[Nicollette]

I'm asking this question for someone I know. This person needs to file a Ch 7, but she really can't afford an attorney. She has no assets, judgements filed against her, and a tax lien against her. Is it really complicated to file pro se, or should she try to save up for BK attorney? I've read some of the threads on here about the NOLO book. Does it walk you through the process step-by-step?

[HHM]

Well, the tax lien complicates matters (which means there is tax debt, does she know if the tax debt is dischargeable). Also, there are some extra steps when judgments are involved.

I haven't read the Nolo book so I don't know if it addresses these issues.

Generally, if people have a need, they find a way. Even in BK, when people say they have no money, that tends to be a knee-jerk reaction (I am filing BK, why would I have money)...kinda like when you walk into a retail store and the sales person says, "Can I help you", what is the first thing you say.."no, just looking". Most people, once they sit down, run the numbers, and let go of their pride (stop paying unsecued creditors, get a tax refund...if filing a chapter 13, stop making mortgage payments), can figure out a way to pay an attorney if they really need the help.

[Nicollette]

Well, the tax lien complicates matters (which means there is tax debt, does she know if the tax debt is dischargeable). Also, there are some extra steps when judgments are involved.

I haven't read the Nolo book so I don't know if it addresses these issues.

Generally, if people have a need, they find a way. Even in BK, when people say they have no money, that tends to be a knee-jerk reaction...kinda like when you walk into a retail store and the sales person says, "Can I help you", what is the first thing you say.."no, just looking". Most people can figure out a way to pay an attorney if they really need the help.

What type of tax debts are dischargeable?

[AngelinaCatHub]

HHM that was a wise answere. In this case, I think an attourny is appropriate.

I went pro se in my AP because I had to (no money). It did me well as the adversary attorney actually realized my so called creditor was a crook. It got kicked back to where it belonged and to date no action towards me/us.

[HHM]

What type of tax debts are dischargeable?

Read here

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=24853

[Dst1]

I have the Nolo book and frankly think it's overrated. If you know nothing about BK it's a good introduction. Rather than focus on anything in depth, it tries to cover all aspects of the BK process in a superficial way. The net result, however, is that if you are a no asset case in Chapter 7, about 2/3 of the book is irrelevant. In truth, if you hang out here for a bit you will learn everything you need to know. It's just not all in in one nice and organized place like the book.

As for pro se I think it has less to do with money and just how comfortable you feel about the law. You don't have to be an attorney to file pro se but I think an interest in the law helps. If you look at court building and the whole concept of walking in there on your own scares you, then maybe pro se is not the best for you. Finding a good attorney to help you is not just about the law, it's about having confidence and security about what you are doing. BK can be a nerve racking process and if you find the law intimidating then the money for an attorney is well worth it for the peace of mind alone. What's that saying about penny-wise and pound foolish....

[soleprop]

Dst1 speaks the truth. I filed Pro Se because I couldn't afford an attorney without waiting several months to save up for one, and also because I wanted to be very aware of every single aspect of my BK; and my sense was that when you get an attorney, you are only partially aware of all of the communication, paperwork, etc. going on.

I used the NOLO book like a security blanket and this forum was definitely a source for all else.

Personal opinion: filing pro se bk requires a lot of time and organization. if you can't devote the time to ensuring you get it done right, pay someone who can.

[justbroke]

I'm jumping into this a little late. As usual, HHM has accurately stated just about what I would state.

As a pro se filer (myself), I would tend to believe that a case such as the one stated, should be handled by an attorney. The IRS is one creditor that you don't want to mess up with.

When I say, don't mess up with the IRS, I mean that you could file pro se and not get into any additional trouble with the IRS, but you may miss some advantages of the Bankruptcy Code to leverage and or even discharge some tax debt!!!

Have your friend stop paying their credit cards... and voila... money to pay the attorney is there!

[theBorrower]

My thoughts as a soon-to-be default debtor.

Im preparing before the storm. My line of credit is calling in their balance. My CC doubled the int. rate. 1 month till I cant pay. BTW- I read about the Bankruptcy Score and it makes sense why all of a sudden this is happening. Ive been on this forum for a week. Excellent and I thank everyone for their time. I have The NOLO book.
It is basic compared to what's here. Worth $20-yes. I thought about filing pro se. Considering Im doing most of the leg work. But, was said about courts and such, Im slowly changing my mind. I ran a quick inventory of personal property, have no IRA, no homestead. The PP may have enough non-exempt value for an asset case. Most of this is in office equipment, tools, machinery, coin collection, hunting/fishing gear,etc. Not talking about alot, and I understand the "garage-sale value" concept. Then there's the startup side business which generated online $$. Along w/the fact that Im not married but living together for 20yrs, she owns everything except my PP. Also my biz escrow bank account for agency billing, which I cant figure out.
For me, these seem complicated enough and Im not the best person to file paperwork. Not a big case for an attorney but getting too big for me. This may be worth the $2-3k retainer to try to save some non-exempts and do it right. Im tired and I havn't really started, but Ill keep reading your comments..

[lizbebe]

Dst1 speaks the truth. I filed Pro Se because I couldn't afford an attorney without waiting several months to save up for one, and also because I wanted to be very aware of every single aspect of my BK; and my sense was that when you get an attorney, you are only partially aware of all of the communication, paperwork, etc. going on.

I used the NOLO book like a security blanket and this forum was definitely a source for all else.

Personal opinion: filing pro se bk requires a lot of time and organization. if you can't devote the time to ensuring you get it done right, pay someone who can.

I agree with soleprop.

I was a pro se filer and it took me months of research and plenty of drafts before I filed for Chap 7. I did rely on the Nolo book, but it did not help me with every single question or issue. I still had to rely on forums like this to iron out some details. Even so, I still made some mistakes and the trustee was brutal with me. Trustees don't make a lot of money and they really hate dealing with pro se filers (IMHO) because they take more time and effort on the trustee's part.

Remember, a trustee is NOT a lawyer and during your creditor's meeting they DO NOT answer questions. They simply present the issues or problems in the paperwork (if any), to which you or your lawyer replies, "Thank you. We will file an amendment."

I filed Chap 7 in 1987 (when I had a mere 12K in debt). Everything has changed as of 2005 and the BK lawyers have the upper hand given the complexity of the current process.

My informal recommendation is for your friend to find a low cost attorney, especially given that there are taxes involved. I had no taxes involved in my BK, did not have a job, and spent hundreds of hours preparing my filing (including all of the reading and research).

Good luck.

[dingdong]

"Remember, a trustee is NOT a lawyer and during your creditor's meeting they DO NOT answer questions. They simply present the issues or problems in the paperwork (if any), to which you or your lawyer replies, "Thank you. We will file an amendment."

Actually, the Trustee is a lawyer, you can kind of look at him as the lawyer representing the creditors as a whole. Although he does not actually "represent" them lets say in the case of an AP or other matter, he is their to assure equity in the distribution of the BK estate and to make sure the process adheres to the code, etc.

Most Trustees are practicing BK attorneys, so your Trustee may be representing another debtor in their BK case.

[justbroke]

Most Trustees are practicing BK attorneys, so your Trustee may be representing another debtor in their BK case.

And, to make it even more fun, some Trustees, like mine, have one or two staff attorneys!

[dingdong]

Oooh. Three lawyers!

Q: How many lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Three. One to climb the ladder. One to shake it. And one to sue the ladder company.

[CoCoChanel]

Filing Pro Se Yes or No?

I read the post here about filing pro se. I remember back in 2007 when I first started this journey, I found pro se interesting because it reminded me of my legal days in law at Loyola. So for those of you who are comfortable with details, and I mean you are a person who will set aside time, read line by line, document notes and make sure you double check each time you have to appear at court for all documents, I really do not think you will have any problem with the process. The NOLO book was purchased by me, but it did not help me in the lease. The book that really helped me believe it or not was Filing Bankruptcy for Dummies. Beside the obvious humor, the information was dead on. And it was also written the way I could understand it.

Also having a bankruptcy helpdesk in Illinois helped a lot as well. I was taken step by step through the entire process. I did as I was told to do via the helpdesk and I reviewed errors pointed out by the helpdesk person, returned with corrections each time I was told to do so, made copies of all papers they wanted and showed up at court when asked.

Also on my own I would go to the court rooms of other cases and sit in just to get a feel of what to expect. This helped a lot.

Filed July-07

341 meeting Aug-07

Discharged Sept 07

Closed Nov-07 yea....yea...yea....

[isabella19]

Thats good advise, going to the court house & sitting through cases, just to know what to expect. I'm going to do that!
My husband & I are filing ch 7 but have a small business (no assetts) that we are puting in our ch 7. I am using a para legal to help me with the paperwork. I hope this is a good idea. She has worked for many bk attorneys & seems to know her stuff. Has anyone else that is pro se, used a para legal? Any advise is apprecited. I have also studied this board daily for weeks. When I forst came here I was having a breakdown from being over whelmed, now I am slowly understanding all the bk language.
I am so thankful for this forum.