Question For the lawyers in here, what are the Pro Se duties of communication

[bornfree2]

In a BK case there may be many interested parties. For example, Debtor may have (3) credit cards, (2) collection companies, (1) mortgage company, (1)car loan company as creditors. Then the (1) court is interested as is the (1) judge and of course the (1) Trustee and (1) U.S Trustee.

Lets also not forget the taxing authorities, (1) federal, (1) state, (1) municipalities.

So in this example, we have 3+2+2+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 16 interested parties!

So now along comes Debtor and they want to submit a declaration statement to the court. So they file it at the court. Do they now have to cc mail all 16 parties with expensive proof of service?

Unlike an attorney that can use the courts electronic submission system and use in house staff to certify mail, the Pro Se has to use snail mail and must find expensive process servers.

So when exactly is a Pro Se supposed to alert everyone of any communication they do with the court or directly with the Trustee?

[justbroke]

(I am not a practicing attorney, but this is just something you can't teach online in a forum. There are way too many requirements and the expert on the "technical" application in this area are not the attorneys, but the Clerk of the Court. If it's a "legal" application, then that would be the attorneys or maybe the Judge's law clerk.)

Since this is a procedural question it can be answered by the Clerk of the Court or their case managers (deputy clerks). A case manager is generally assigned by judge and by some other randomization such as last couple of digits of SSN. Some courts have opted to just have a pool of case managers who can work on any case for a specific judge or judges. I had a specific case manager and she was wonderful. She answered all my "procedural" (technical) questions and helped me resolve deficiencies.

First, notice (service) is based upon the rule which applies. For example, in a Chapter 13, service of an Objection to Claim must be filed on at least 2 addresses (the two on the claim!) or you'll get a deficiency. Some USTs and Trustees automatically get notice of everything, so noticing them is redundant... unless the paper is specifically for the UST and/or Trustee. My Trustee told me to STOP SENDING THINGS since I was just causing them a headache. Your mileage (Trustee) may vary.

Second, rules have specific service requirements which can differ if it's an objection, valuation, or how the specific court treats certain things. For example, contested matters must be serviced the same way that you do for an adversary (Rule 9014).

Third, remember, Pro Se has the same exact duties as an attorney if the attorney was presenting you in the case. While the court is somewhat lenient on some things, they are not on general procedure.

Finally, the bottom line is that the Clerk is your friend when it comes to procedural questions related to "technical" aspects of a bankruptcy. ALWAYS start the conversation with a friendly greeting and then say that you need to ask a procedural question! ("Good afternoon, I'm calling with a procedural question related to service requirements for an Objection to Claim.") They'll be happy to help since they are the ones that look at your papers (filings) and determine whether they are in compliance with the "technical" requirements. If the paper fails to meet that requirement, a deficiency is issued and the paper is placed into abatement.

For example, in my Chapter 13, my case manager was very very helpful to me. She allowed me to serve only the Trustee and then she would notice all my creditors via the BNC (Bankruptcy Noticing Center). At the time, I had over 60 creditors so it saved a lot of postage when sending out a 7-page updated (pre-conversion) plan! The first time I mailed out the plan, it cost me over $120 because I sent them all in a flat. Boy I learned how to waste money!

If you have a legal question, you can usually go to the Pro Bono clinic. This is not to be abused or to try to monopolize their time on theoretical questions. It's a limited resource.

In 95% of cases, there's nothing a Chapter 7 Pro Se debtor does other than a.) fill out the petition, b.) bring to Clerk's window, c.) pay clerk filing fee, d.) take notice of bankruptcy and 341 meeting home, e.) wait for 341 Meeting, f.) comply with Trustee requests (including things needed at least 7 days before 341 meeting, g.) attend 341 Meeting, h.) get discharge.

Most Chapter 7 cases don't involve a single one of the issues that your question presupposes. This is simply a non-issue in those cases.

[bornfree2]

For example, in my Chapter 13, my case manager was very very helpful to me. She allowed me to serve only the Trustee and then she would notice all my creditors via the BNC (Bankruptcy Noticing Center). At the time, I had over 60 creditors so it saved a lot of postage when sending out a 7-page updated (pre-conversion) plan! The first time I mailed out the plan, it cost me over $120 because I sent them all in a flat. Boy I learned how to waste money!

Thanks for your thoughts justbroke . I agree with you on the points you made and wanted to follow up on this particular one.

Yes this is the idea I was trying to illustrate. You had 60 (!!) creditors you had to notify and the mailing and photocopy cost was outrageous. Thus I was asking if this is the case everytime anything the Pro Se files something at the court. Assuming they don't have the privilege you had, Does everyone have to get cc'ed snail mail?

And is there a difference between notifying them of a filing (1 page letter) and actual copies of the content filed (say a motion, or amendments, or adding evidence to the docket like emails, tax returns, etc.

I understand it depends on the rules, but what is the general overall rule - everyone gets notified and copied of papers filed at court by Pro Se?

[justbroke]

Yes this is the idea I was trying to illustrate. You had 60 (!!) creditors you had to notify and the mailing and photocopy cost was outrageous. Thus I was asking if this is the case everytime anything the Pro Se files something at the court. Assuming they don't have the privilege you had, Does everyone have to get cc'ed snail mail?

No. It's not the general rule. You must also remember that it depends on the type of noticing (service) required by the Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure (FRBP) and local rules. It can differ by type.

As I tried to elude, service of a contested matter is entirely different and you must follow the procedure. The Clerk will not mail anything for you in contested matters or adversary proceedings.

And is there a difference between notifying them of a filing (1 page letter) and actual copies of the content filed (say a motion, or amendments, or adding evidence to the docket like emails, tax returns, etc.

This is in the FRBP. You must serve them the paper itself. Then you must attach a Certificate of Service. There is some question as to whether a Pro Se can sign their own Certificate of Service and mail things. I never had an issue.

I understand it depends on the rules, but what is the general overall rule - everyone gets notified and copied of papers filed at court by Pro Se?

No. It depends on the paper that needs to be filed. Somethings are only filed with the court (e.g. Notice of Conversion), while filing an Object to Claim required specific service based on the addresses in the Claim with "Proof of Service" (e.g. the Certificate of Service).

This is hardly ever required by a Pro Se who is no-asset. There's just nothing to object to or "serve" on anyone, except in some rares cases (e.g. missing creditor).

[bornfree2]

top notch response! thank you. i thought i had combed through the different books to find this out, and yet i read this. im sure when i return to the books to confirm it will be there all along. funny how the law/answers hides itself in plain sight

[bornfree2]

No. It depends on the paper that needs to be filed. Somethings are only filed with the court (e.g. Notice of Conversion), while filing an Object to Claim required specific service based on the addresses in the Claim with "Proof of Service" (e.g. the Certificate of Service).

Just a note on this. Proof of service filed with court must be done by someone not party to the case. Thus Pro Se cant self certify. Using certified mail return receipt only provides Proof of Mailing, not service. Thus, process server expense is required for cases where filed Proof of service with court is required. Perhaps local rules vary but thats the overal riding of how proof of service works.

[justbroke]

If I had something that required service under 9014 (7004), I used another person to sign the Certificate of Service and to place the item in the mail. You don't necessarily need a "process server" for things. I never used one in my bankruptcy. Service-by-mail is a thing and, again, for the items requiring FRBP 9014 (7004) type service, I had a third person perform that service. They were not a process server.

But my case was a Chapter 13 and I don't see this as a big issue in a Chapter 7.These are things that just usually don't happen for a Chapter 7 Pro Se individual and especially in a no-asset case. The only time the I have needed to use the 9014/7004 official service of process was when it was on a Corporation and it was an adversary (or a Motion to Value).

In fact, the no-asset cases usually travel with hardly anything on the docket other than the petition, the notices from the Trustee/court, the 341 Meeting outcome, and maybe a couple of requests for appearances. They tend to have very limited dockets because no one is filing paper.

[bornfree2]

I can forsee many cases where a Pro Se needs Proof of Service. I mean its identical to the cases any debtor with an attorney needs

- filing amendments
- filing any kind of declaration (and to introduce evidence)

Which returns to the original intent of the question. In the first case, its clear notification is necessary - everyone on the case must be notified of the changes (rule 1009). My local court require proof of service for this kind of change.

In the second case, its unclear to me if every single filing a Pro Se does with court requires everyone else to be notified (and Proof served or just Proof of Mailing).

The filings I see on RECAP are only 99% attorneys. And they always use certificate of service since its easy for them to do so with office staff or themselves (as they are not the debtor they are the third party to provide service)

[justbroke]

I can forsee many cases where a Pro Se needs Proof of Service. I mean its identical to the cases any debtor with an attorney needs

You are looking at scenarios that may happen. For most Chapter 7 Pro Se cases that have no assets, this is hardly an issue.

- filing amendments

These are specific. If you are adding a new creditor there is a very specific process. The amended schedules are not served on the creditors (and your district may not require you to serve it directly on the UST). You may not even need to "serve" an amendment on the Trustee.

- filing any kind of declaration (and to introduce evidence)

No one that I know files declarations in a Chapter 7 Pro Se case. If you are filing an objection or moving papers (Motion), you may attach make attachments providing why you are making such an objection or claim. But, again, I wouldn't see where a no-asset Chapter 7 Pro Se debtor would need to do anything.

Which returns to the original intent of the question. In the first case, its clear notification is necessary - everyone on the case must be notified of the changes (rule 1009). My local court require proof of service for this kind of change.

As I just wrote, service is on the Trustee and only on an affected creditor... not everyone. Again, this hardly ever happens.

In the second case, its unclear to me if every single filing a Pro Se does with court requires everyone else to be notified (and Proof served or just Proof of Mailing).

Ask the Clerk of the Court or your specific case manager for a procedural question. The rules are in the FRBP for the type of item. If you're asking about amendments to schedules, it's very clear in FRBP 1009 what you need to do.

But, again, hardly anyone needs an amendment in a Chapter 7.

The filings I see on RECAP are only 99% attorneys. And they always use certificate of service since its easy for them to do so with office staff or themselves (as they are not the debtor they are the third party to provide service)

Reread the language. In FRBP 1009 it only reads "notice of amendment" it doesn't talk about service. Service is different but I always included a Certificate of Service (Proof of Service) and had zero (0) issues. Your mileage may vary. But, again, I have not seen in a no-asset Chapter 7 case such issues.

In the end, if you, as a Pro Se, have these types of procedural questions, the Clerk of the Court is your resource. Some of these questions could be legal questions... but the Clerk's office would let you know. (By not answering your legal question.)