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What BK law changes would have worked?

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    What BK law changes would have worked?

    I feel that the BK laws did need some updating to prevent abuse; however, the changes that were made obviously aren't working. IMO, they were attempting to do three main things with the new laws: (1) try to decrease abuse by high income filers, (2) try to have more people pay at least something to the unsecured creditors, and (3) to stop using the BK system as a legal system to halt foreclosures instead of using other legal means.

    The pre-BK credit counseling is not turning more people into payment plans, but it is partly working since emergency filings to prevent foreclosures are down. Seems like a lot of waste of time and effort to me where a large group of people are being "punished" for the actions of a few.

    IMO, just get rid of it! When you're filing BK, you don't have extra money to spend and it would be better used by pro se filers to contribute to an hour of legal advice from an attorney. Or to pay for the increased filing fees that went up in April.

    Means test. Okay, not totally a bad idea, but still could use some help. First issue, the income is based on the previous six months. With some creative planning, almost anyone can pass by timing their BK appropriately. How about the predicted six month income? Or some combination of previous 3 month and predicted 3 month income?

    Still, the majority of filers are filing due to job loss, excessive medical costs (even those with medical insurance), and divorce, these are not the people the new laws were targetting.

    Instead, the laws were trying to target high income filers. That's were a stricter means test is needed. How about a separate means test for those who make 2 or 3 times the median income for their state? And/or allow the trustee more scrutiny on expenses for that group. This would focus on the group that has more potential to contain the "abusers" of the system.

    Since the majority of Ch 13 BKs fail due to unforeseen circumstances, make savings part of the payment plan. Except, the trustees hold the savings in an account that can only be used with their consent. This would help with emergencies, provide a little nest egg to be turned over upon completion of the plan, and teach an important lesson--savings to prevent future problems.
    *** THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE--ONLY A LAWYER CAN PROVIDE THAT. ***

    My posts represent hours of research on and off the web, these forums, my experience, and my opinions.

    #2
    I wonder...

    ...if creditors would be happy to be "shorted"...but I like the idea. I was looking through archives here and couldn't see if any savings would be allowed now during a Ch 13 unless it is cash in your sock drawer.

    Since the majority of Ch 13 BKs fail due to unforeseen circumstances, make savings part of the payment plan. Except, the trustees hold the savings in an account that can only be used with their consent. This would help with emergencies, provide a little nest egg to be turned over upon completion of the plan, and teach an important lesson--savings to prevent future problems.

    Has anyone seen a report on if there are more or less CH 13 since the new law? If I get my new job I will be a 13; without it, a 7, but lose the house. (Couldn't keep up payments without new job anyway.)
    August '05 Business failed.
    Spring '06 Found this site, thank heavens
    Chap 7 (no asset) filed 11/10/06; 341:1/31/07
    disharged 2/26; closed 4/17/07

    Comment


      #3
      In the long run, would creditors really be getting "shorted" if more people actually complete their full plan? As far as I can see, the sock drawer method is the only method of savings. Yet, I think people are allowed to put a little in 401K which could be used for emergencies with a high penalty for withdrawl.

      Colorado just posted the colorado quarterly statistics:



      2006 1Q: Ch 7 = 79.81%; Ch 13 = 19.07%; Other = 1.11%
      2005: Ch 7 = 93%; Ch 13 = 6.67%; Other = 0.19%
      2004: Ch 7 = 89.32%; Ch 13 = 10.31%; Other = 0.37%

      The National Statistics should be out the end of this month:

      Filter for statistical tables by topic, report, or date. Topics include court of appeals, district and bankruptcy courts, and the U.S. Supreme Court. The district court topic includes sub-topics for data on jury, civil, criminal, magistrate judges, probation, pretrial services, and trials.
      Last edited by anonymuse; 05-14-2006, 10:41 AM.
      *** THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE--ONLY A LAWYER CAN PROVIDE THAT. ***

      My posts represent hours of research on and off the web, these forums, my experience, and my opinions.

      Comment


        #4
        Personally, I think the 2 years within a move, you must use the old State's exemptions thing is stupid.

        That maybe could have been a thing to be phased in at a later date after other parts of the New Legislation took effect. Or, better yet, just say if you haven't lived in a State for 2 years prior to filing, you have to use Federal Exemptions.

        The New Law was confusing enough, in and of it's self for Courts and attnys. Throw on top of that having to deal with another State's exemptions??!!

        It's caused problems for us.

        About half the BK attnys locally just quit practicing when the law changed. They finished up their Old Law cases and quit taking new clients filing under the New Law.

        Of the rest that were left, about half said NO to dealing with the outa state exemptions. The New Law was enough to deal with and I guess they didn't wanna brave going up against the Court on "foreign" exemptions.

        Maybe instead of making people use their old State's exemptions, the Law coulda allowed for people that moved to use the Federal Exemptions instead. That's what the Court wound up ruling for people who didn't have an old State to use and didn't qualify for their new State anyway.

        If a family moved around a lot, and didn't stay put in one State for a couple of years before filing BK, like happens with some military families, they didn't qualify for any State's exemptions. The Court ruled those folks could use the Federal Exemptions.

        The New Law shoulda just said anyone who'd recently moved and didn't have 2 years of residence their new State uses Federal Exemptions.

        Certainly woulda helped out a lot of people, and saved attnys and the Courts a lot of hassle.
        Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
        Discharged - 12/2006
        Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
        Closed - 04/2007

        I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

        Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by SinkingFast
          Personally, I think the 2 years within a move, you must use the old State's exemptions thing is stupid.

          That maybe could have been a thing to be phased in at a later date after other parts of the New Legislation took effect. Or, better yet, just say if you haven't lived in a State for 2 years prior to filing, you have to use Federal Exemptions.

          Of the rest that were left, about half said NO to dealing with the outa state exemptions. The New Law was enough to deal with and I guess they didn't wanna brave going up against the Court on "foreign" exemptions.

          Maybe instead of making people use their old State's exemptions, the Law coulda allowed for people that moved to use the Federal Exemptions instead. That's what the Court wound up ruling for people who didn't have an old State to use and didn't qualify for their new State anyway.

          If a family moved around a lot, and didn't stay put in one State for a couple of years before filing BK, like happens with some military families, they didn't qualify for any State's exemptions. The Court ruled those folks could use the Federal Exemptions.

          The New Law shoulda just said anyone who'd recently moved and didn't have 2 years of residence their new State uses Federal Exemptions.

          Certainly woulda helped out a lot of people, and saved attnys and the Courts a lot of hassle.
          I am one of those recently moved type of people. I moved from FL to TN, and have now lived in TN for over 6 months. When I filed, the lawyer said I had to file a 13 and use FL exemptions since I had not lived in TN for 2 years. Then he said he was going to research into it, and found out that I had to do a 7 with federal exemptions since FL requires a person to be domiciled (i.e. actually live in the state) to use their exemptions. So I lucked out in that regard.
          Filed: 3/7/06
          341: 4/3/06
          Last Day for Objections: 6/2/06
          Discharged: 6/9/06
          Case Closed: 6/15/06

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Titan
            I am one of those recently moved type of people. I moved from FL to TN, and have now lived in TN for over 6 months. When I filed, the lawyer said I had to file a 13 and use FL exemptions since I had not lived in TN for 2 years. Then he said he was going to research into it, and found out that I had to do a 7 with federal exemptions since FL requires a person to be domiciled (i.e. actually live in the state) to use their exemptions. So I lucked out in that regard.
            Unfortunately this worked backwards in our case... We moved from Utah to New Jersey 6 months ago... we have to use Utah exemptions... which don't allow you to use federal exemptions and thus we get no "wild card" exemptions and pretty much only bedroom furniture, a sewing machine, a years worth of stored food (can anyone see the mormon connection here?) and pots and pans. That's about it since we don't own a house.

            If we were able to use the federal exemptions we would be able to take approx. half the house exemption and use it as a wild card since we don't own a house... that wild card, between the wife and I would be enough to cover absolutly EVERYTHING we own. They wouldn't be able to take so much as a buck out of my checking account. Oh well, if we get the ch 7 we want it'll still be worth it even if we walked out of the courthouse wearing our birthday suits and a smile.
            Filed Ch. 7 Pro-Se: 10/12/06
            341: 11/6/06 (went AMAZINGLY well!)
            Discharge: 1/12/07
            Closed:1/19/07

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by LostOne0069
              Oh well, if we get the ch 7 we want it'll still be worth it even if we walked out of the courthouse wearing our birthday suits and a smile.
              I hear that one, Lost!

              When we started out, we worried about being able to hang on to this and that. But then we had to sell, sell, sell, the put off the inevitable anyway.

              At this point, I don't really care what they take as long as we get a Ch 7, we're outa debt, and done with it all.

              We're both so tired at this point, we've already lost so much, we don't really care!
              Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
              Discharged - 12/2006
              Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
              Closed - 04/2007

              I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

              Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

              Comment

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