The Black Box -- Filing to 341 Meeting

[anonymuse]

Between filing and going to the 341 meeting, we just basically need to sit back, stress out, and wait.

I know all the paperwork needs to get into the system, documents for the automatic stay goes to the creditor, etc.

But there's this black box window where I can never quite tell what exactly the trustee doing during this time? How long before your case do they get all of your schedules? How many cases do they typically carry at once? What documents do they have to prepare for the 341 meeting, if any?

[Minnymouth]

The process is pretty much like this:

1. Your attorney files your petition with the Court.
2. The Court appoints a US Trustee and he hires a Trustee to handle the creditors in your case. The Trustee and US Trustee are given copies of your petition immediately.
3. They are given approx 60 days to notify all creditors, go over your petition, all your accounts, etc. to verify what is in your petition.
4. You are give a Court date depending on what is "available" at the time... of filing. Normally a 341 meeting is 45 to 60 days after filing your petition.
5. Trustee holds a meeting with all the creditors before your 341 meeting with him.
6. Trustee begins his process of looking over everything searching for any assets that you might have.... he checks court records, land and deed offices, etc.....

This time span is the "black box" you speak of..... and yes its sit back, try to relax, and wait till the 341.

The Trustee has to verify everything in your petition for the Creditors and the US Trustee. He has to hunt for a decided if you have any disposable income which could put you in a Chapter 13 instead of a 7.

After the 341 meeting the Trustee has to prepare for the Court and explanation of his findings...... do you have assets?, do you have disposable income?, are you within the guidelines of the federal/state laws means test?,

An average Trustee probably will handle as many as 20-30 cases a day in 341 meetings. Maybe more.....

The Trustee has to have all his paperwork done, his ducks in a row, and be prepared to fight your attorney over any assets he wishes to go after that you do not want to surrender or he wishes to take to sell. He has to get values of property (appraisals etc) and fair market value of other items such as jewelry, guns, etc.

He also has to hire auctioneers etc. if needed..... and schedule sale dates for homes, property, autos that is being taken by the court as assets.

So he is a busy man, not with just your case, but many cases as the same time..... all running right behind each other in the Court system.... Some new cases opening, some at the 341 stage, and other fixing to discharge, then still the final closing to come.

Also he has cases that the Court has discharged previously that he has to send a statement to the Court telling the Court what happened in your case, what was sold, etc, and explain where the money went to the creditors..... If a Chapter 13 plan, then he has to go over the plan, make sure the Court and creditors accept it, then start the process of paying creditors on a monthly basis.

When you case is over he submits a final closing to the Court and US Trustee that your case is over, what was paid to everyone if they received funds, and that he is ready to be released from his duties as your Trustee....

Hope this helps explain the 60 day span before 341 and the 60 days after 341 meeting......

Minny

[aa06a47]

The process is pretty much like this:

5. Trustee holds a meeting with all the creditors before your 341 meeting with him.

I didn't know that the trustee holds a meeting with the creditors before the 341 meeting? I have never seen nor heard of this. Where did you get the infomration that they hold a meeting with the creditors.?

[Minnymouth]

Its in the Court records where he meets with them..... remember the Trustee represents them............... The US Trustee is the one who oversees everything....

The Trustee has his meeting with the creditors too see what is owed, how much is owed, who is secured and who isn't......

After his meeting with them, he has his 341 with you and verifys all documents and ask his questions.

Then his creditors have 60 days to object to the Court granting you a discharge on your debts.

BELEIVE ME THE TRUSTEE WORKS FOR THE CREDITORS BEST INTEREST - NOT YOURS............

[Minnymouth]

The document is in the court records, we're just not allowed to read what was discussed..... like some of the other documents.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Its in the Court records where he meets with them..... remember the Trustee represents them............... The US Trustee is the one who oversees everything....

The Trustee has his meeting with the creditors too see what is owed, how much is owed, who is secured and who isn't......
After his meeting with them, he has his 341 with you and verifys all documents and ask his questions.

Then his creditors have 60 days to object to the Court granting you a discharge on your debts.

BELEIVE ME THE TRUSTEE WORKS FOR THE CREDITORS BEST INTEREST - NOT YOURS............

I too didn't know this. I thought the creditors were notified of the filing and it even states to creditors "not to file your claim at this time". I thought that only when it's detemined that a debtor is an asset case then the trustee will notify creditors they may file their claims. Is this a telephone meeting with creditors? I didn't think creditors would meet with every case either by phone or in person since this would cost a pretty penny. I thought the 341 was the only meeting with creditors and most of them never show anyway.

[aa06a47]

Perhaps only the ones that show up to the 341 meeting get to meet with the trustee. I thought part of there filing claims to was outline the secured / unsecured creditors.

[Minnymouth]

A lot of the meetings are done by phone conversations/ fax / letter when the Trustee contacts the creditors to discuss exactly what you owe them and what for. Some of them he may contact, some he may not.
They are not supposed to file a claim unless assets are found to be disposalable.

Most Trustees do not contact unsecured creditors, mostly only the secured ones to verify that they do have secured debts and what their security is...... lien, mortgage, propety, autos, etc....

Remember, most reaffirms are signed and done at the 341 meeting, with the Trustee and secured creditor present. Though some do take place after that between creditor and filer under the new laws. Under the new laws it is the responsibility of the filer to contact the creditor regarding the reaffirm agreements. Your attorney will not do this now, because if he takes part in it now, he can be held liable if you do not pay the reaffirm agreement...... Now, you will see NO LAWYER sign a reaffirm agreeement like before under the old laws. Now that lawyer is NOT GOING TO SIGN that you will pay it in full since his butt is on the line also. His signature on documents like that can end up costing him....... So now you do your reaffirm and 722 redemptions on your own.....

Now that attorneys are held responsible for what's in your petition and what they sign off on - they aren't signing much of ANYTHING THESE DAYS.....

My attorney would have been in a world of hurt - had I filed under the new laws......

[aa06a47]

I have heard that sometimes your attorney will meet with creditors that show up prior to the 341 meeting to discuss the case with them. They like to iron things out prior to the meeting.

[aa06a47]

A lot of the meetings are done by phone conversations/ fax / letter when the Trustee contacts the creditors to discuss exactly what you owe them and what for. Some of them he may contact, some he may not.
They are not supposed to file a claim unless assets are found to be disposalable.

Most Trustees do not contact unsecured creditors, mostly only the secured ones to verify that they do have secured debts and what their security is...... lien, mortgage, propety, autos, etc....

Remember, most reaffirms are signed and done at the 341 meeting, with the Trustee and secured creditor present. Though some do take place after that between creditor and filer under the new laws. Under the new laws it is the responsibility of the filer to contact the creditor regarding the reaffirm agreements. Your attorney will not do this now, because if he takes part in it now, he can be held liable if you do not pay the reaffirm agreement...... Now, you will see NO LAWYER sign a reaffirm agreeement like before under the old laws. Now that lawyer is NOT GOING TO SIGN that you will pay it in full since his butt is on the line also. His signature on documents like that can end up costing him....... So now you do your reaffirm and 722 redemptions on your own.....

Now that attorneys are held responsible for what's in your petition and what they sign off on - they aren't signing much of ANYTHING THESE DAYS.....

My attorney would have been in a world of hurt - had I filed under the new laws......

Great...my attorney has told me none of this.

[Minnymouth]

Did you actually think your attorney would tell you that he is responsible if he makes errors during your bankruptcy process?????

The new laws hold attorneys liable for thier actions now....... My attorney would have been screwed good had he been caught now...... He would loose his liscense and all...... and had some tall explaining to do to the Judge.....

You need to read up on the new law changes that affect you in the Bankruptcy Manual here on the forum on one of the sticky threads.... May even be in this section here on a sticky note...

Filers do have rights - and the attorney is supposed to be protecting them!!!
Not just making his money and taking a hike!!!

Your attorney can help with the reaffirm if he wishes too, and redemption 722, but you must sign all the papers.... your attorney will no longer sign and represent you on them.....

Do not rely on your attorney to tell you everything, do your research.... and keep on top of everything he does. Ask questions - GET ANSWERS..... THATS WHAT YOUR PAYING HIM FOR!!!!

LESS THAN THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE............

[Minnymouth]

The Tactfull Bankruptcy Manual Vol.11 with the new laws is in this section of the forum..... its one of the threads at the top with a stick note next to it.

Good, informative reading.....

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Did you actually think your attorney would tell you that he is responsible if he makes errors during your bankruptcy process?????

The new laws hold attorneys liable for thier actions now....... My attorney would have been screwed good had he been caught now...... He would loose his liscense and all...... and had some tall explaining to do to the Judge.....

I respectfully disagree with this statement Minny. The only actions attorneys are liable for would be things like not properly investigating their debtor clients. If a debtor transferred any assets, made preferential payments, or falseified their income and the attorney didn't catch it but the trustee did, then the attorney would be liable and pay fines to the trustee.

You're correct about reaffirmation agreements. The attorney would be liable for these which is why they won't sign them anymore.

As for your situation your attorney wouldn't be accountable for the title mistake under new law as well as old. You can sue him for mal practice, but it's not written anywhere that when they screw up they automatically pay you for damages and lose their license.

This was posted just last week on how an attorney screwed their clients after the change in law and the clients are SOL! I will bet that the attorney won't lose his license and probably not pay them any damages.

http://www.bankruptcyforum.com/t7469-shoplifting-is-wrong-bankruptcy-is-also-a-moral-act.html

[notme]

Remember, most reaffirms are signed and done at the 341 meeting, with the Trustee and secured creditor present. Though some do take place after that between creditor and filer under the new laws. Under the new laws it is the responsibility of the filer to contact the creditor regarding the reaffirm agreements. Your attorney will not do this now, because if he takes part in it now, he can be held liable if you do not pay the reaffirm agreement...... Now, you will see NO LAWYER sign a reaffirm agreeement like before under the old laws. Now that lawyer is NOT GOING TO SIGN that you will pay it in full since his butt is on the line also. His signature on documents like that can end up costing him....... So now you do your reaffirm and 722 redemptions on your own.....

Minny,or to anyone that might know, how would I go about getting a reaffirmation without having my lawyer involved? I want to reaffirm my 2nd mortgage and truck but our lawyer basically said he would not sign it. I've tried calling the 2nd mort. co. but they said I needed to consult my att. for any reaffirmations. Thanks

[Minnymouth]

FoolandhisMoney,

The Debtor hires an Attorney for his expertise and legal advice. This is a service we PAY FOR.....

Under the new laws an attorney is held responsible by the Court for failing to represent a client in his best interest. It is the Attorneys responsiblity to verify the petition that HE is presenting to the Court. Should the attorney "screw up" and his actions cause "unjust harm to a client" he can be held responsible by the Court and the following can happen:

1. He can be fined by the Court should the Judge feel it is justified.
2. His liscense can be lifted or suspended by the Board of Ethics depending on the actions of the attorney and the harm caused to the client.
3. He can be sued by his client for malpractice and negligence.
4. The clients case can be dismissed by the Court because of the attorneys actions.
5. The judge can issue an order for the attorney to refund the clients payment for services.

Yes you have the right to sue your attorney for malpractice and negligence in your case, if the attorneys actions caused your case to be dismissed, or caused you "unjust harm" due to his actions.

If YOU FAIL to supply your attorney with proper information, then it is YOUR FAULT.... Your attorney is supposed to verify the information you presented to him... before he signs off on it for presenting to the Court.

As in my case where the attorney failed to verify the lien on the title, under the new law, yes he would be responsible. Under the old law, NO.... Anytime their is a mortgage, their is a lien against the property. As with auto's, if there is a loan against it, there is a lien on the title.

My attorney had copies of everything, mortgages, etc, yet failed to look at the lien against the property on the mortgage papers. HE DIDN'T LOOK AT ANYTHING - JUST FILED THE PAPERS.

The Trustee himself told me - THANK YOUR ATTORNEY FOR YOUR HOME BEING SOLD - HE SHOULD HAVE SEEN THIS...... AND CORRECTED THE PROBLEM IN COURT. YET, MY ATTORNEY DID NOTHING EXCEPT COVER HIS OWN ASS AT MY EXPENSE.....

And yes, it is malpractice and negligence on the part of my attorney.... for which he is liable.

The new law helps protect the debtor from attorneys that DON'T DO THEIR JOBS....... but it does not protect the debtor if he gives the attorney false information....