Help!!!

[mountanddo]

This really isn't rocket science. You, as the mother, have a duty and obligation to look out for the interests of your daughter and your grandchildren and show her the "tough love" that is needed. You should first of all tell her very bluntly that any assistance from you is conditional on her breaking up with her "bad boy" boyfriend, and having nothing else to do with him except for seeing him in court and allowing him to meet the children for court-ordered visitation. You should make it clear to her that if she continues to see this man, you will be forced to kick her out on her ass, and file for temporary custody of your grandchildren.

You should encourage your daughter to dump all her debts--car payment, back rent, back utilities, etc.--and move back in with you. You should then see to it that she goes to the DES and files for child support and whatever public assistance benefits she is entitled to. At the very least, she should be entitled to food stamps, medicaid, and daycare assistance for the kids. Even assuming that the ex-boyfriend does not work, cannot be garnished, or otherwise evades paying child support, the state will still provide these things to your daughter.

BTW, another benefit of being on public assistance is that in many states, a judge will take that as evidence of extreme poverty and deny a judgement creditor's request to garnish wages (assuming that she shows up to the hearing and objects on the grounds of hardship).

First, she doesn't have a "duty or obligation" to grown children. Adults make decisions on their own. Parents are there to help but after they've become adults they are no longer in your control - and honestly who would want that anyway?

She will get rid of the BF when (if) she is ready. If the BF is also the father of her children then that makes it more difficult.

If she can file chapter 13 and reorganize her debts then that might be the way to go. If she is making $20/hour now, it wouldn't be smart to give that up for a $7-8/hour job or welfare. She needs help to learn how to be responsible. Just because someone doesn't have the financial abilty to care for their children does not make it ok to take custody of those children. It IS ridiculous. You cannot make that statement not knowing what all the circumstances are. We don't even know how old this person is.

Your offer to have her come live with you is a very gracious offer but is it going to be the best decision long term for her? Big things to consider.

[mountanddo]

Not really. If she is in danger of being kicked out of her apartment because she can't pay the rent and utilities--and that this is due to a pattern of irresponsibility, not a sudden emergency--then it's not too difficult to make the case that the children would be better off with the grandparents. And it sounds to me, objectively speaking, that this is correct.

How many of us on this board have been in danger of being kicked out of their apartment. Probably more than people admit. We, more than anyone should try to be helpful not judgemental.

[lotsahats]

How many of us on this board have been in danger of being kicked out of their apartment. Probably more than people admit. We, more than anyone should try to be helpful not judgemental.

Well said, Mount!

My $0.02:

She definitely needs to get rid of the boyfriend. That will happen when she gets sick and tired of being sick and tired.

She definitely needs to look into every kind of public assistance she is entitled to. Food stamps, daycare, medicaid. In some areas, this may even include a cash allowance.

[mach1cj]

bcohen, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. she has just had a history of bad decisions, mostly influenced by her boyfriend.

[mountanddo]

bcohen, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. she has just had a history of bad decisions, mostly influenced by her boyfriend.

Sometimes the responses on this forum crack me up! What ONE person on this board has not had a history of bad decisions?

[bcohen]

Most people (including myself, I might add) are here due to the current economy, or high uninsured medical bills. I believe--based on my experience here, as well as from knowing several people who have filed for BK--that job loss and prolonged unemployment is what drives most to BK. Sure, many people have made bad decisions, like buying a house at the top of the market, buying a new car before the economy tanked, or using credit cards to pay for normal living expenses. But bankruptcy normally fixes these problems, which is why most of the people I talked to are significantly better off after they filed.

I don't know why I have faced so much harsh criticism for posting what is so obviously the truth. Maybe there are too many young single mothers here, or women in denial about their bad relationships that don't like hearing the honest reality?

[mach1cj]

I'm sorry if I ruffled anybody feathers, I'm just trying to cope. to clear the air, I'm her Father and 62yrs. old. she is 33, her kids, 3&7. during this past week, I have been back and forth as what to do. I was originally just going to help support her out in Philly and catch her up on her bills. she has no support or family in Philly which is about 500mi. away from home. it is difficult to do much when your 8-9hrs. away. her Mother took off work to be with her now to help with the kids so she can work. even at $20. an hour, it's just not enough for everything. her boyfriend IS the father. I worry about my daughters'mental health as she has always had a rough time of trying to make it. she doesn't want to be alone. she has a college degree, if that means anything. thanks for all the support, it really means alot to me.

[despritfreya]

So can she file Chapter 13, be in a five year plan and then have the debts discharged? I guess I'm not understanding this.

Eligibility for a Chapter 7 discharge - 8 years from the filing date of prior Chapter 7 (not date of discharge) 11 USC 727(a)(8)

Eligibility for Chapter 13 discharge - 4 years from date of prior Chapter 7 discharge (not date of filing) 11 USC 1328(f)

Filing a 13 before the 4 years is up would not result in a discharge even if Plan payments are for 5 years as the time period must have run as of the filing date.

Strategy:

1. Daughter, who can't afford to pay the debt, simply stops paying and waits until such time as she is forced into seeking the protection of the automatic stay. This could be months or even years depending upon what is garnishable once there are judgments against her.

2. Daughter, if she is not beyond the 4 year window, files a Chapter 13 with the understanding that she will not get a discharge. To keep everyone happy she proposes a 5 year/100% repayment plan on a graduated payment term. Say $200/month for 12 months; $400/month for the next 12 months and so on.

3. Daughter stays in the Chapter 13 either long enough for the 4 years to pass or, if she had waited long enough before filing the 13, the 8 years to pass. Maybe she does not even need a bk if all of the SOL’s have also passed.

4. Daughter then lets the Chapter 13 case get dismissed either voluntarily or by not making the Plan payments.

5. Once dismissed, and assuming the SOL argument does not work, daughter files another case (either 13 or 7) now that she is entitled to a discharge. If a 13, the payment is now based upon her ability to pay not what it would take to pay 100%.

At least 3 problems with this strategy - I am sure others will point out more:

a. Will case #2 be challenged as a bad faith filing - probably not, especially with 2 small children and no child support (assuming no support).

b. Daughter will have to request that the bk court extend the stay beyond 30 days. Not a big deal.

c. This is a long term strategy and a lot can happen over the years.

Des.

[Nicollette]

Well she can't file Chapter 7 for 8 years after a discharge and I think she can't file Chapter 13 for 6 years after a discharged Chapter 7 (correct me if I am wrong someone!)

I think the real question is why she got into so much debt in less than 2 years from a bankruptcy. Did she lose her job or have lots of medical bills?

I think its four years between a Ch 7 & Ch 13?

[Drazil65]

One thing I learned with my sister who seem to only be attracted to the bad boys who never worked (all the excuses in the world) and she ended up being a single mom of twins with no help from the absent dad, was that the more we helped (siblings) the more she would continue the pattern. As long as there was help with rent, groceries and all the babysitting she never took stock of her life. There was no motivation to change, why change if you knew you had a cushion and she knew the cushion would be there as long as she had little ones.

We started giving her deadlines for help. Take or leave it. If she is serious about change she will do whatever it takes to fix it and as long as you keep telling her that she is only going to make $7 or $8 dollars an hour if she comes home then that will be her new excuse for why she cannot make it on her own. If she must come home make it for a VERY short period of time. Maybe 90 to 120 days max. That way you are managing expectations and she has her timeframe. If you are going to be babysitting anyway (and I am sure you will be) then maybe she works 2 or 3 jobs to get ahead. Under no circumstances is the boyfriend involved. If he wants any kind of visitation let him go to court and file for it, my bet is he won't. Leave it alone, he is not working so there will not be support, sorry but that is what she chose for a father and that is the reality of it. He does not come to visit from Phili, she does not go out with him if he is in town, this should be a deal breaker. Give her the conditions and the timeframe, she will either take it or leave it.

She is an educated adult with the responsibility of children, you cannot enable her or this behavior. Make the offer and at least if she does not take it you know you have done what you could do and made the offer. You cannot make her change and you do not have to continue to bail her out. Some people have to learn the hard way unfortunately. Good Luck.

[mountanddo]

I'm sorry if I ruffled anybody feathers, I'm just trying to cope. to clear the air, I'm her Father and 62yrs. old. she is 33, her kids, 3&7. during this past week, I have been back and forth as what to do. I was originally just going to help support her out in Philly and catch her up on her bills. she has no support or family in Philly which is about 500mi. away from home. it is difficult to do much when your 8-9hrs. away. her Mother took off work to be with her now to help with the kids so she can work. even at $20. an hour, it's just not enough for everything. her boyfriend IS the father. I worry about my daughters'mental health as she has always had a rough time of trying to make it. she doesn't want to be alone. she has a college degree, if that means anything. thanks for all the support, it really means alot to me.

You are not ruffling any feathers. This forum is here to help people cope with financial issues NOT give personal relationship advice. Yes, it very well be that your daughter might need to kick the father to the curb, get some therapy, be more responsible etc, etc. but I'll assume you know that and trust that you know best how to deal with that.

Is it possble for you to help with at least the car? Get her caught up on the $1000 she is behind and help her with the payments? Maybe just taking away that one stressor might help things out. She still may be able to get some daycare assistance even though she is making $20/hour. With a 3 person household she may qualify. Again, I'd hate to see her give up a job at $20/hour for one that is $7-8. That can be very hard on a resume and might make it more difficult to find a better job. She also may be able to get some emergency help for the back owed utilities. As far as the other debts goes, she might just be able to stop paying on that and see what happens. Possibly file Chapter 13 if she is in danger of being garnished or have judgements placed on her.

She is obviously a smart girl or she wouldn't have a college degree. Trust me, as a single mom I am sure she'd rather be able to figure out a way to support herself and children on her own rather than have someone take care of her. If the BF isn't paying support, her applying for assistance might just trigger getting him to do that. Of course, that's not a guarantee and ideally she needs to figure out a way to survive without that. Keep reading and posting.

[mountanddo]

One thing I learned with my sister who seem to only be attracted to the bad boys who never worked (all the excuses in the world) and she ended up being a single mom of twins with no help from the absent dad, was that the more we helped (siblings) the more she would continue the pattern. As long as there was help with rent, groceries and all the babysitting she never took stock of her life. There was no motivation to change, why change if you knew you had a cushion and she knew the cushion would be there as long as she had little ones.

We started giving her deadlines for help. Take or leave it. If she is serious about change she will do whatever it takes to fix it and as long as you keep telling her that she is only going to make $7 or $8 dollars an hour if she comes home then that will be her new excuse for why she cannot make it on her own. If she must come home make it for a VERY short period of time. Maybe 90 to 120 days max. That way you are managing expectations and she has her timeframe. If you are going to be babysitting anyway (and I am sure you will be) then maybe she works 2 or 3 jobs to get ahead. Under no circumstances is the boyfriend involved. If he wants any kind of visitation let him go to court and file for it, my bet is he won't. Leave it alone, he is not working so there will not be support, sorry but that is what she chose for a father and that is the reality of it. He does not come to visit from Phili, she does not go out with him if he is in town, this should be a deal breaker. Give her the conditions and the timeframe, she will either take it or leave it.

She is an educated adult with the responsibility of children, you cannot enable her or this behavior. Make the offer and at least if she does not take it you know you have done what you could do and made the offer. You cannot make her change and you do not have to continue to bail her out. Some people have to learn the hard way unfortunately. Good Luck.

On paper this all seems reasonable but in the reality of life it doesn't alway's work this way. Again, we don't know the whole story or circumstances.

[mountanddo]

Most people (including myself, I might add) are here due to the current economy, or high uninsured medical bills. I believe--based on my experience here, as well as from knowing several people who have filed for BK--that job loss and prolonged unemployment is what drives most to BK. Sure, many people have made bad decisions, like buying a house at the top of the market, buying a new car before the economy tanked, or using credit cards to pay for normal living expenses. But bankruptcy normally fixes these problems, which is why most of the people I talked to are significantly better off after they filed.

I don't know why I have faced so much harsh criticism for posting what is so obviously the truth. Maybe there are too many young single mothers here, or women in denial about their bad relationships that don't like hearing the honest reality?

I agree that a lot of people have to file due to losing a job or having to pay for extraordinary medical bills however, most of these people also have high credit card debt as well and while they are able to pay these bills when they are employed easily these events put them over the top and they are still living beyond their means or they wouldn't of had to use credit cards at all. If you purchase anything above and beyond living expenses on a credit card you are living beyond your means which in reality was a bad decision or you wouldn't be filing BK. Yes, we could argue this all day long and into the night but if people were totally honest everyone would have some debt that they didn't need to incur -- including you. There are not a lot of people here that paid all their bills with cash and are soley discharging medical bills. No ONE bankrupcty is better than another and sometimes bad things happen to people more than once.

I'm not a young, single mother at the present but I was. It is very difficult to raise children on your own with no support from the other parent. I was lucky enough to have support but honestly, it didn't pay for 1/10 of what I had to spend. We can all judge people while looking through their windows but sometimes the reality is more than you can see.

3/4 of the world is in bad relationships. If it were that easy to just say "dump them" the divorce rate wouldn't be over 50%. All this being said, the OP came for financial advice not advice on how to raise his daughter.

[tobee43]

A Chap 13 can be filed immediately after the discharge of a 7, but no debts can be discharged in the 13 within 4 years of the filing date of a 7 that was discharged. She can file a Chap 13 to get her debtors off her back and allow her to catch up on payments to her creditors. But, that would only solve her problems if she is willing to change her habits this time.

this is an excellent plan!

unfortunately some people just can't learn how to manage their funds. if they got into a hole this soon after the 7, well, there may be many more underlining problems.

Lady's suggestion is excellent since it will be conducted under a watchful eye, and if it comes to a point where one stops paying there will be repercussions of that behavior.

[bcohen]

You are not ruffling any feathers. This forum is here to help people cope with financial issues NOT give personal relationship advice. Yes, it very well be that your daughter might need to kick the father to the curb, get some therapy, be more responsible etc, etc. but I'll assume you know that and trust that you know best how to deal with that.

It is true that this forum is devoted to discussing (and educating) people on financial issues, dealing with debt and collections action, and if necessary filing for relief under the Bankruptcy laws. However, in a situation where the person's choice of a boyfriend/girlfriend is the cause of the financial problems--and where the situation is clearly not going to improve--of course, a rational person is going to advise that the relationship be terminated. It may not be what you want to hear, but unfortunately it's the truth.

Is it possble for you to help with at least the car? Get her caught up on the $1000 she is behind and help her with the payments? Maybe just taking away that one stressor might help things out. She still may be able to get some daycare assistance even though she is making $20/hour. With a 3 person household she may qualify. Again, I'd hate to see her give up a job at $20/hour for one that is $7-8. That can be very hard on a resume and might make it more difficult to find a better job. She also may be able to get some emergency help for the back owed utilities. As far as the other debts goes, she might just be able to stop paying on that and see what happens. Possibly file Chapter 13 if she is in danger of being garnished or have judgements placed on her.

This is BAD advice. Even assuming that you (as the parent) should help your daughter out by providing a car, I would NOT do so by making payments toward an overpriced and unnecessary SUV that is financed at very high interest. That would be money down the toilet. Heck, by your own admission she can't even afford to insure it, and probably has difficulty paying for fuel, maintenence, and upkeep on it.

You would be better off to buy an inexpensive used car for cash, register and title it in YOUR name, and put your daughter on the insurance. Then let the repo man come get the SUV. This would have a lot of benefits over bailing out your daughter on the current vehicle, and would probably end up costing you much less in the long term. First of all, by having the title in your name, the daughter cannot sell, trade in, or take out title loans against the car. Second, and equally important, the car cannot be seized or liened by any of her creditors--even if she files for bankruptcy again in the future.

I also disagree that taking a lower-paying job is "very hard on a resume" or that it "might make it more difficult to find a better job" in the future. This is a terrible economy, and with so many people out of work, that drives wages down. When the economy improves, and companies start to hire again, wages will increase. Likewise, certain kinds of jobs are disappearing/have disappeared, and the skill sets needed for those jobs are simply not in demand, and companies won't pay much more than minimum wage to persons who possess those skills. That is why many people (including myself) have decided to go to college and train for a new career.

It's also not clear that the wage gap between where she lives now and where you live is as large as you seem to think it is. It is possible that the wage gap is much smaller, and that a job which pays $20 and hour in Philadelphia might pay $15-16 where you live. Even assuming that the only jobs available pay close to minimum wage, eliminating rent and utilities makes this a good move financially.

She is obviously a smart girl or she wouldn't have a college degree. Trust me, as a single mom I am sure she'd rather be able to figure out a way to support herself and children on her own rather than have someone take care of her. If the BF isn't paying support, her applying for assistance might just trigger getting him to do that. Of course, that's not a guarantee and ideally she needs to figure out a way to survive without that. Keep reading and posting.

Unfortunately, a lot of people might be smart in the school but dumb in the life. It is amazing how many women are in love with losers who are using them for their money, etc, and they can't see the light even when everyone else around them can. So having a college degree is not really relevant to this situation. I do agree that she should file for public assistance, because then the state will go after this loser boyfriend for the child support money which he should be paying.