Sooo...with the Probable Failure of our 7, and a 13 likely in our future...

[alorth]

I am just not feeling very good.....especially with the 13 looming over our heads and its 5 year sentence when we had pinned our hopes on the 7 going through (Thank You to our atty. for that, by the way (sarcasm).)

I am seriously considering moving to Texas. Or maybe Pennsylvania.

Somewhere there is no wage garnishment.

Then forgetting about BK.

Letting the judgments come.

Maybe that sounds ridiculous, but it also sounds like a life of more "freedom" than what's staring at us in the face for the next 5 years.

Now some will say, but in 5 years, it will be over, while the Judgments will last a lifetime.

I know. I guess.

Its just something I'm playing around with in my head. Thinking about my options is all.

[HHM]

alroth, I need to be blunt, chapter 13 is THE MOST POWERFUL debt resolution tool available, there is no solution that allows YOU to TELL your creditors what they will receive. In essence, you get to tell your creditors, "I can't pay you what you want, but I have some money left over at the end of the month, that is what you get....tough cookies if you don't like it." It is not a death sentence, it is not a prison sentence, chapter 13 is a tool to get out of debt in 5 years or less, YOU CANNOT DO THAT ON YOUR OWN.

If you don't file BK, you are an idiot, plain and simple.

[alorth]

Well, at least I'm not an idiot, cuz I already filed the 7.

Its just likely to be asked to be converted by the UST to a 13 under 707(b). Or dismissed altogether.

Already had my 341, and PACER says my Notice of Presumption of Abuse was mailed today to me, the lawyer, and all the creditors, etc.

Soooo.....I'll say again....I'm really just thinking aloud.

BUT, I must dispute that its ME, or US, who tells the creditors what they will receive the next 5 years....I think its more like the Trustee and the Judge who ultimately makes the decision.

Then they control you financially for that 5 year period.

Get a raise? Tell the TT. Come into money? Tell the TT. Want to buy Christmas presents for your kids? Forget, it, cuz the TT says so. And don't even think about a Vacation in the 5 year period.

See what I mean?

[papie]

Texas and Pennsylvania allow garnishment of your bank account.

You can pretty much guarantee that wherever you go in the US, those judgements will follow. They might not be able to garnish wages in some areas but there are other ways to collect.

Five years of making payments to a trustee and not dealing with creditors is a hell of a lot easier than years of threatening letters, lawsuits, possible wage or bank account garnishments, creditors skiptracing and calling every number they can find (family, work, etc...), and 20 calls per day to your personal phone.

Most people don't go into debt overnight, and likewise, most of them don't get out of debt overnight. My Chapter 13 isn't a "sentence." It's the consequences of some poor financial and life decisions. If you want to look at it as a sentence, look at as a generous one, you'll more than likely only pay a fraction of what you owe.

[HHM]

Well, at least I'm not an idiot, cuz I already filed the 7.

Its just likely to be asked to be converted by the UST to a 13 under 707(b). Or dismissed altogether.

Already had my 341, and PACER says my Notice of Presumption of Abuse was mailed today to me, the lawyer, and all the creditors, etc.

Soooo.....I'll say again....I'm really just thinking aloud.

BUT, I must dispute that its ME, or US, who tells the creditors what they will receive the next 5 years....I think its more like the Trustee and the Judge who ultimately makes the decision.

Then they control you financially for that 5 year period.

Get a raise? Tell the TT. Come into money? Tell the TT. Want to buy Christmas presents for your kids? Forget, it, cuz the TT says so. And don't even think about a Vacation in the 5 year period.

See what I mean?

Denial is denial, no cure that I know of.

[alorth]

Texas and Pennsylvania allow garnishment of your bank account.

You can pretty much guarantee that wherever you go in the US, those judgements will follow. They might not be able to garnish wages in some areas but there are other ways to collect.

Five years of making payments to a trustee and not dealing with creditors is a hell of a lot easier than years of threatening letters, lawsuits, possible wage or bank account garnishments, creditors skiptracing and calling every number they can find (family, work, etc...), and 20 calls per day to your personal phone.

Most people don't go into debt overnight, and likewise, most of them don't get out of debt overnight. My Chapter 13 isn't a "sentence." It's the consequences of some poor financial and life decisions. If you want to look at it as a sentence, look at as a generous one, you'll more than likely only pay a fraction of what you owe.

Yes...I see what you mean. I'm just sitting here at the 'puter and thinking, is all.

So I started this thread to put my thoughts into words, maybe get some feedback.

I know they allow attachments onto bank accounts, just not onto paychecks.

There are ways around bank accounts.

But again, all hypothetical here.

I guess I look at it like this....

We have already cut back so much, and changed our lifestyle to an exceptionally large degree compared to 5 years ago.

Most of this accumulation of debt occurred between 5 to 15 years ago, and then pretty much stayed the same, but we just couldn't pay it down, though we 'thought' we were taking steps to do exactly that.

So, the idea of FURTHER changes above and beyond what we have already done is very distasteful to me. Very distasteful.

And the idea of putting my family's financial existence into the hands of a TT, essentially a Gov't. entity, for the next half-decade is also something I'm having a very difficult time with.

I appreciate all those who are saying its NOT a prison sentence, but a tool, and a way to learn to budget, and so on. Maybe I will see things that way at some point myself. I'm just having a very very hard time getting on board.

[alorth]

Denial is denial, no cure that I know of.

Denial of what?

That we're BK? That we NEED to do this? That we need to make changes?

Agreed, agreed, and agreed (with exceptions).

Am I not allowed to think aloud about my situation....to look at all angles?

I'm not here to argue, only to see what others have to say, to get some advice, to give some thoughts.

For those that may make their living dealing with BK's from the legal side, maybe its just so cut and dry.

Forgive me though, but I'd love to stick it to the banks a bit harder than what this 13 will allow.

With how they wanted to be our 'friend' for so long, yet became our 'enemy' overnight, through no action taken or not taken by us, it just irks me.

And the fact that we were soooo close to that 7, and just leaving it all behind but for some words in the 2005 law.

Denial, huh? If you say so.

[mountanddo]

Then they control you financially for that 5 year period.

Get a raise? Tell the TT. Come into money? Tell the TT. Want to buy Christmas presents for your kids? Forget, it, cuz the TT says so. And don't even think about a Vacation in the 5 year period.

See what I mean?

A good attorney will see that your expenses allow you some room to move. You don't have to get permission to buy xmas gifts for your kids unless you are planning on taking out a loan to do so. Vacations can be inexpensive, they don't have to be a trip to disneyland. If you come into money or get a raise then you should pay that money to your unsecured creditors. Chapter 13 is going to be hard, no doubt about that but fleeing to another state, the act of packing up all your belongs, finding another job and relocating your children will be harder. Not to mention that you will never be able to get any type of credit waiting out the SOL and then possible 10 more years for that all to come off your credit and then more time to rebuild it back up. Seems more stressful to me but everyone has their own priorities.

[alorth]

A good attorney will see that your expenses allow you some room to move. You don't have to get permission to buy xmas gifts for your kids unless you are planning on taking out a loan to do so. Vacations can be inexpensive, they don't have to be a trip to disneyland. If you come into money or get a raise then you should pay that money to your unsecured creditors. Chapter 13 is going to be hard, no doubt about that but fleeing to another state, the act of packing up all your belongs, finding another job and relocating your children will be harder. Not to mention that you will never be able to get any type of credit waiting out the SOL and then possible 10 more years for that all to come off your credit and then more time to rebuild it back up. Seems more stressful to me but everyone has their own priorities.

I do agree with what you're saying about 'picking up and moving'. It was a fleeting thought. Thanks for the input.

And no...don't plan on breaking the bank on Christmas, Birthdays, or vacations.

And who knows...maybe we'll end up with a quite reasonable 13 TT?

[mountanddo]

Out of curiosity how is your attorney responsible for pushing you into a 13?

[shark66]

Presumption of abuse per se is not the end of the world.

Are you simply over the median or there's more to the story?

Good luck to us all.

[despritfreya]

I would like to add my thoughts. . . for what they are worth.

While OP is opposed to the 13 because he/she believes such will be a ball & chain for 5 years, what really needs to be considered is peace of mind. One can “hide” all they want, but eventually the creditors catch up. So, lets say OP "hides" for 2 years. Once those 2 years are up the creditors begin filing suit and garnishing whatever they can. Now OP is forced to face reality and file a 13 (unless OP qualifies for a 7). So, what could have been taken care of in the here-and-now over 5 years is theoretically going to take 7 years (the 2 years OP hid and the 5 years of the 13).

Cut the cord now. Do the 13. Agree to pay your creditors what you can afford to pay (based upon your jurisdiction’s "guidelines") and then move on with life.

By the way, how much do you owe to your unsecured creditors vs. how much do you think your attorney will set the Plan at paying? If the Plan pays less than 100% you are getting a good deal - not paying what you owe.

People are, in general, fickle. It is tough to make choices and even tougher to make the right ones.

Des.

[alorth]

Out of curiosity how is your attorney responsible for pushing you into a 13?

Just to quickly answer this....

The atty. is more responsible for pushing us into TRYING the 7, NOT pushing us into a 13 at the very beginning.

A year ago, when this all started, we were pretty much resigned to a 13, but after the means test, even though we were 2x median income, he convinced us we had a great chance at the 7 making it. And it was close, but there were some errors on the Means Test, and we were NOT close enough, so the Presumption of Abuse came down, and it couldn't be fought victoriously.

Our hopes were raised, only to be shot down.

That's what I was trying to say. We might already be 6 months into a 13 if we had just gone with the original thoughts and plan.

Maybe I should be thankful we tried for the 7 just in case it had gone through? But its a bitter pill to swallow to be so close yet so far.

[despritfreya]

The atty. is more responsible for pushing us into TRYING the 7, NOT pushing us into a 13 at the very beginning . . . Our hopes were raised, only to be shot down . . . We might already be 6 months into a 13 if we had just gone with the original thoughts and plan.

And, this is exactly why, when I have clients on the boarder, I want them to make the final decision. In the cases where they elect to try the 7, the moment an issue arises we either convert or agree to dismiss and re-file as a 13. In those instances it makes little sense to run up additional legal fees when there is relatively little chance of success. Once in a while I will get a case with true “special circumstances”. I attempt to avert and showdown with the UST by filing an Affidavit as to those circumstances when the Petition is filed. But, the point is that it is the client's decision, not mine, as to which Chapter to go for.

Des.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Just to quickly answer this....

The atty. is more responsible for pushing us into TRYING the 7, NOT pushing us into a 13 at the very beginning. Then applaud your lawyer for his efforts and thoughts for your best solution. Blame him for nothing as a 7 is certainly the best if you can get one. He is paid to do for your best interest.

A year ago, when this all started, we were pretty much resigned to a 13, but after the means test, even though we were 2x median income, he convinced us we had a great chance at the 7 making it. And it was close, but there were some errors on the Means Test, and we were NOT close enough, so the Presumption of Abuse came down, and it couldn't be fought victoriously. In your last thread, I and others mentioned that the Presumption of abuse is a computer generated flag by the numbers. Then the UST looks at it. I/we are the classic Efff Ups on all things we could do wrong, yet we eked it out and finally got relief. You are showing "normal" frustration.

Our hopes were raised, only to be shot down. That is called LIFE, my friend. Get over it and go with what you have.

That's what I was trying to say. We might already be 6 months into a 13 if we had just gone with the original thoughts and plan. As Des said, it could be 7 years if you attempt to run from creditors as you "thinking online" suggested. The six months was a worthy attempt.

Maybe I should be thankful we tried for the 7 just in case it had gone through? But its a bitter pill to swallow to be so close yet so far. Look at my signature plate and how long ours took. Our mistakes took us from net worth of 10 mil to living on my SS. Get over it and proceed with you life and BK plans.

Alorth, you are impatient and frustrated, stressed, and depressed. All are normal in BK and if you keep reading other's posts, you might see many other people far less well off than you are. You make good money, are putting your child through private school and have the resources to pay your C13. Others are not that fortunate so start looking at the half full side of the glass, not your half empty. NO ONE said life is fair. Only YOU can make it work out. Peace, and Joy are a choice you make in your own mind. At this time, you are choosing misery and so, you have it. 'Hub