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**LostOne0069** · 04-05-2006, 07:37 PM

Lets see... I'm sorry, I can't really give educated advice on your questions... but I do have one question for you.

If you're single and earning $45,000 per year... why are you so broke? To get a Chapter 7, you're going to have to show what your expenses are and why you don't have at least $100 per month to pay your creditors. Those expenses also can't include "$500/month for crack" or "$150/month for canine pedicures."

**FilingOnMyOwn** · 04-05-2006, 10:58 PM

I'm not sure about the above post lol, but I do agree in questioning where your money is going. If you make good money then where exactly are your money problems coming from? Anyways...

1. Does a motorcycle count as a second vehicle for the IRS deductions of a two-vehicle household?

Yes if its your primary mode of transportation and within the motor vehicle exemption allowance when included with other vehicles.

2. Will they look at where I previously lived if I explain that we are broke up and I have my own place? Is it necessary to explain that I have a recent change of address? Will they contact him? I don't want him to know my business any more!

No they aren't going to call your boyfriend. I don't understand what you're getting at here either.

3. I get a salary BUT have yet to be paid for some side work I did on a contract basis. I do not get paid for this side work until the contract is up and I will be filing before then. It's only like 1000 dollars or so, and not steady or guarenteed work. Will that be added to my income if I do not have it in hand by the file date?

Your income is calculated on a monthly average over a time frame of the previous 6 months. If you have it before you file, you include it in the average. If you don't, you don't. If at the 341 the trustee asks if you are anticipating money and you haven't received it yet, you mention it.

4. I heard somewhere that PA is a "tenancy by the entireties" state. I am not married to the guy, so what does this mean for me since I lived with him?

Um ok what?

5. Last one I promise! When they say that a 13 must pay at least what a 7 would, what does this mean? Don't creditors get nothing when a person goes bankrupt? Not sure I understand this one. I have NO SECURITY in my life and 5 years of spending the little tiny 100 for paying creditors in a 13 plan will be all I have. I might be able to save that and don't want that tiny security taken away!! It scares the heck out of me and I do not want to be forced into a 13.

You will only be forced in a chapter 13 if you can afford to pay your bills. Can you afford to pay them?

**aa06a47** · 04-06-2006, 01:29 AM

100/month for 35K in credit card debt isn't a bad deal. When your done with your 60 payments your done. If you paid 100/month for 5 years at zero interest (which we know won't happen), you would still be paying 25 years later.

I know the thought of being stuck for 5 years in a chapter 13 sucks, but it is better than the alternative. Think of it as a bargain.

**AMISLANDER** · 04-06-2006, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by LostOne0069

Lets see... I'm sorry, I can't really give educated advice on your questions... but I do have one question for you.

If you're single and earning $45,000 per year... why are you so broke? To get a Chapter 7, you're going to have to show what your expenses are and why you don't have at least $100 per month to pay your creditors. Those expenses also can't include "$500/month for crack" or "$150/month for canine pedicures."

I just have to jump in on this one...if she did have a crack problem and has her ATM withdrawl records (which can be easily accessed; she could in fact prove a drug addiction and the money would be accounted for! Just trying to add some humour to an unhumourous situation

**Minnymouth** · 04-06-2006, 08:57 AM

If you do make $45,000 a year then you will have to explain where it all goes when you file bankruptcy.... All income and expenses will be listed.......

If you are just trying to avoid getting put into a Chapter 13 because you don't want to pay the creditors anything --- well DREAM ON, it probably won't happen!!!

So hope you got all the expenses you need to show where all the money goes (bad habit or not) otherwise you will be looking at a Chapter 13 to get the debts settled or discharged.

We all pay bills EVERY MONTH - and many are paying into Chapter 13 to clear their debts up.

Even living by yourself, you will be expected to pay on your debts if you are able......

**SinkingFast** · 04-06-2006, 10:00 AM

More than likely, the motorcycle will be considered a vehicle for BK purposes.

The Government came back and said, post 10/17, that a lawn and garden "TRACTOR" must be considered a vehicle and cannot be itemized amongst the Household items. If a lawn and garden tractor is a vehicle, I'd bet a motorcycle is also a vehicle.

There is no way around it. Being over the Median automatically throws you into Ch 13. That's the way the New Law was written. If you can pay back $100/month, you'll be in Ch 13 for 5 years.

The Court doesn't play fun and games. This is serious business. As in serious FEDERAL business. If you make $45K/year, and basically had no living expenses (rent, utilities, food, and such) when you were staying with BoyFriend, the Court is gonna wanna know what you did with the money.

If you're a gambler, fess up, and be prepared to document it. If you're a drug addict, fess up, and be prepared to document that. I'm not saying give up your source or anything like that. But get a drug test to prove you do use and go to rehab for drug abuse. If you gamble, join a therapy group. Prove you're trying to treat your addiction. If you're a shop-a-holic, you'd better have tons of nice new clothes, shoes, jewelry to show for the monies spent.

**Minnymouth** · 04-06-2006, 10:29 AM

SinkingFast is right on the nail head.....

Everybody has problems some have addictions and just bad habits.....

If you can prove to the Court that you gamble and are now attending rehab for it - they will work with you.
If you have a drug problem - prove your in rehab doing something about it and hope the court is lienant and discharges all of it for you.... often they will.

If you are just wanting to keep funds for yourself over and above what you need to live on - DREAM ON..... the court will expect you to pay some of your creditors what the court designates....... over a 5 year span.

Thats just the way it is in bankruptcy.....

SinkingFast is absolutely...... bankruptcy is SERIOUS, FEDERAL BUSINESS..............

Minny

**FoolAndHisMoney** · 04-06-2006, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by LostOne0069

Lets see... I'm sorry, I can't really give educated advice on your questions... but I do have one question for you.

If you're single and earning $45,000 per year... why are you so broke? To get a Chapter 7, you're going to have to show what your expenses are and why you don't have at least $100 per month to pay your creditors. Those expenses also can't include "$500/month for crack" or "$150/month for canine pedicures."

This can be answered very simply. Ones gross income means NOTHING in my books. A high tax region with high housing costs as well as a job that demands you pay a lot into your medical insurance can suck you dry even with a large salary like 45k. Gross salary today means nothing. Disposable income after reasonable expenses is all that counts.

**SinkingFast** · 04-06-2006, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by LostOne0069

Lets see... I'm sorry, I can't really give educated advice on your questions... but I do have one question for you.

If you're single and earning $45,000 per year... why are you so broke? To get a Chapter 7, you're going to have to show what your expenses are and why you don't have at least $100 per month to pay your creditors. Those expenses also can't include "$500/month for crack" or "$150/month for canine pedicures."

That was us 25 years ago. $45K annually. And we lived high on the hog.

Drove new cars. Had fur coats and jewelry. Took fabulous vacations. And NO CC debt. Not a care in the world.

TWENTY FIVE years ago.

Today is much, much different.

**mydebtsucks** · 04-06-2006, 06:26 PM

I do not have a drug problem!

Thank you for the replies and help so far. I am having so many moral issues with being BK. I tried to do my best. I know some of that was the lighter side of the situation to talk about, But I am not a gambler, not a druggie, no personal defects other than being naive to think I would be taken care of. I THOUGHT I had someone I was marrying, but that has changed. I have NOT made this kind of money forever. In fact it was MUCH less. And, I had a nasty divorce years ago that left me practically destitute, but I worked my tail off (like everyone here) to pay on those old debts. (I can't remember a time when I didn't work two jobs). I never have (in 10 years) gotten them paid. I came into this relationship with debt, and I paid every extra penny I could on the debt but COMPOUNDED INTEREST makes it so I can never pay it down! I have personally paid 20,000 in medical bills alone and more. I do have personal responsibility. I never had a home to borrow against because from the get-go, the debt from my divorce and my income wouldn't even let me get a home. But I suffered and paid. I did add some debt to the total because I thought I was adding to the household. And I got caught in that cycle where I would pay TOO much every month only to run short in my checking and have to turn around and charge something again. Has no one else done that? Stuff comes up. As for the person who responded that I "should" be okay on 45,000, you never asked what was behind it?? We all have a story and we all got here somehow. It is a little short-sighted to assume I have some binge going on.
My fears of a 13 is that I literally have nothing. If my disposable income goes to the 13, where in 5 years can I ever hope to buy a cheap washing machine for example? Where exactly will this money come from when the IRS standards don't even come close to the actual cost of living? I'm just standing on a soap box here, but I have paid SOOOO much. I know the new laws are for serial filers and preventing abuse, but come on, why can't they look at what you HAVE paid in the past and honestly TRIED to give back over a long span of time. My medical bills and student loans are paid! And I bet that the original amount that I had on my cards has long since been paid in full, but that blasted compounded interest never lets them go away.
And incidentally, after filling out some of the forms from the .gov site, I found out I may not have to worry. I am, after medical expenses, actually going to be in the hole every month now that I have to move out on my own (and that is without paying any of the unsecured debt.)
So, am I going to have to wait many months and many creditor calls later to file just because I DID live with someone else previously who paid most of the bills? I will not have the money to pay the credit cards. Do I have to wait and show that I am living in a different situation now? Here's a scenario - What if someone lived high off the hog making 200,000 a year and suddenly loses their job and becomes very ill. Just because 2 months ago they lived VERY well does that really mean they will not be able to file? Even if they know that their situation is not going to improve...? The past is the past...
Or is it?

**SinkingFast** · 04-06-2006, 07:09 PM

I didn't mean to insinuate you were a druggie with my most recent quote/comment.

Some of us have been at this a while. When you say you make $5K more than the Median and the State you live in, we can easily go to the Schedules and see roughly how much you earn.

We, on the Forum, have people from all walks of life and income ranges. To some folks here, $45K sounds like a lot. Hence my comment about living very well on $45K 25 years ago. But we couldn't support that same lifestyle today on that income and I know it.

And yes we are all here for the same reason. I'm guilty. Too much month and not enough money in the checking acct. Gotta pay for the groceries some way. I've paid electric bills with CC's. Medical bills with CC's. Repaired cars with CC's. You name it, insert life expense here, I've paid for it with a CC.

So you have/had Medical Bills. That's a life changing event beyond your control. Believe it or not, when you get thru BK and start to rebuild, that will help you. How lenders view BK folks is sometimes purely a moral judgement. You wanna buy a house, a life altering event will fair better that "I was a shop-a-holic" with mortgage lenders.

You may indeed have to endure a few months of phone calls from creditors while you establish a living expenses pattern. How much for rent. How much for electric, and phone, and groceries, and such. Unless,.......... You happen to have bills from when you lived with BF that you can say you contributed to paying half of. Was your name on the lease?? That type of thing.

When you select your attny, they are going to ask for, and have to have on file, at least 2 months of all your bills. That's New Law, in case they get audited. That's why I said you may have to endure some phone calls to get the life expenses pattern established.

We just hired our attny last week and gave them almost all the docs they needed after the Consult. All our CC statements. Our Credit Reports. 2 months of all bills receipts. 6 months pay stubs. 2 months Bank Statements. Copies of our Mortgage and our Rental Lease agreement. Our life insurance policy statement. We didn't have with us, and they did need on file, info on our auto insurance policies and our renter's insurance, and a few other lesser docs as well. Took me another half day to gather the rest of the stuff and get it over to the attny's office.

**mydebtsucks** · 04-07-2006, 01:50 AM

I have looked at the documents I have to gather. And thank you. The sad part is, I was always on time in the past. Except for high balances, I actually have decent credit. I ordered my credit report the other day. My BF owned the house, and just about everything in it. Considering my rocky past, the couches and such that I had were crap compared to his, so I sold them when we moved in. (If I only knew then...Hindsight is 20/20) My name wasn't anywhere on any of his things. But we proceeded in life like they were ours. He asked me to marry him and got engaged. The ring is the only thing I have. I would contribute to the expenses, but usually for the small things like groceries or cash for entertainment. No real receipts to cover me. Like anyone in a relationship, you don't get into it thinking it will end. Will they understand that the ATM cash withdrawals and grocery bills and such were actually my household contribution? I doubt it.

**SinkingFast** · 04-07-2006, 04:54 AM

I'd think you are gonna need to rent your own place and set up your own utilities. Get a phone. Get a cell phone if you don't have one. Add cable and internet service. All those bills are deductible toward determining a Ch 13 plan payment.

I'd say, you'd need to be on your own for about 3-4 months before you file.

The look back period is 1 year, so you may be asked to explain what went on before you established your own residence. Just tell the truth like you did here. That you contributed what you could to the household expenses, groceries, entertainment, and such, and you were paying off medical bills and your own CC bills.

**LostOne0069** · 04-07-2006, 06:06 AM

MDS: My apologies, I really didn't mean to imply anything negative about your or your situation. I also did not mean to make light of your situation.

First, whether or not you can use a motorcycle as a vehicle on your exceptions depends on your state. I recently moved from Utah, so I will have to use their exceptions and they say that I can use a motorcycle as long as it's my primay mode of transportation. The same limitation goes for a off road vehicle... although how many people use an ATV to commute to work and back is probably fairly small.

As to the $45k being "a good living" I can completely understand your frustration when hearing this. I am the LAST person to intentionally imply that you're "wasting" anything or that you shouldn't be having financial problems. I make a lot more money than you and I'm in a lot more financial problems for a lot less of a good reason.

My question in that regard was really just because the bk court will ask you the same thing. They look at that median income figure, you're over the top of it, so they're going to tell you that you have to take the means test. If you have ongoing medical expenses, those obviously will go into that means test and may make it so that you still qualify for a chapter 7. If you have legitimate expenses that use up all of your income, then you should still be able to do a chapter 7.

What my poorly done humor was trying to do was ask if you had any income that the bk court would consider "disposable". Requiring ongoing medical care is definitely considered a legitimate expense. So is child support or any other "priority" debt like that. For instance, if you are paying $1000 a month for medicine and $1200 a month for child support out of that $45k per year... yes, you are likely a slam dunk case for Chapter 7.

If, on the other hand, your expenses are for what the court considers "unnecessary" expenses, and please understand I'm not assuming that they are, such as a drug habit or a gambling habit or getting your pet rhino's toenails trimmed... They'll tell you to get off the drugs, stop gambling and give the rhino away or let it's toenails get long.... and then force you into a chapter 13.

The fact that you lived rent free last month, but don't this month is a non-issue... last month you had a boyfriend who payed the rent, this month you don't.

Your past expenses are less important than your current ones. Start documenting everything you spend your money on. That way in a month or two you can show those expenses to the bk trustee if he asks for them. They probably wont as long as the form that lists your expenses doesn't have anything unusual on it. If you have high ongoing medical expenses that are your reason for chapter 7 vs chapter 13, they probably will want documentation of that.

Good luck!

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