Not intending fraud not wanting to file & home remodeling charges

[AbbeyA]

Go look at the Small Business board and the AP boards and read some threads in there. The personal bk's as a result of business failure tend to be hairy. My dh had a business that failed and he had personal guarantees, lawsuits etc. We were forced to file bk and thankfully, are on the side of it. It was not a nice thing to go through and as someone stated earlier, business creditors can be very vindictive - something we experienced. You say that you don't think the landlord creditor is going to pursue a $650,000 debt??? This is not like $5000 and it won't be worth it for him to pay the legal fees to get a judgment - this is $650,000 that you personally guaranteed! Stop lying to yourself and thinking that the creditor is not going to pursue this matter, he/she will. This creditor surely knows that you have a high income, and it IS in his interest to pursue the debt from you. It's a matter of WHEN, not IF, this lawsuit will pick back up. BTW, Katty is BKatty (BK Attorney) - he or she is offering you very sound advice.

If you didn't think using the credit cards in this manner could be a problem, you wouldn't have asked the question on this board. Trust your instincts ... my guess is that this question has kept you up a couple of nights -- there is a reason why.

If you are able to make large payments like you have said, hold off on buying the cabinets until your next big payout and buy them with cash at that time. Or start you savings account for this project and continue forward when you have the cash to do so. If you do need to file and you are questioned on this, it will be much easier to smooth out a large cash purchase like this than a large credit card purchase.

Another thing to think about ... if you do file, will you let the house go since it is underwater? Will you reaffirm an underwater house? If you will be letting the house go if/when you file, why are you putting all of this money into it in the first place?

[Notmeplease]

Hi Abbey. "If you will be letting the house go if/when you file, why are you putting all of this money into it in the first place?" Because I don't intend to file bankruptcy, and I've chosen not to live in some pre-BK limbo for the next one to two years while all of this works itself out. Even if I did file BK, I wouldn't let the house go. The mortgage payments are cheaper than rent.

"You say that you don't think the landlord creditor is going to pursue a $650,000 debt??" That is correct. He's facing serious litigation with a counter-claim because of things he did, before and during the lease. He does not have a sure thing in pursing this claim against me. It's a business decision. Why throw thousands of dollars in litigation costs away when your judgment will force a person into BK and you'll get nothing in the end?

"If you do need to file and you are questioned on this, it will be much easier to smooth out a large cash purchase like this than a large credit card purchase. " I don't believe I have to "smooth out" any cash purchase if it is outside of 90 days. However I'd rather put it on a card, get the points and rewards and pay it off over time. Again, I am proceeding with life as if I will not be filing.

[Notmeplease]

Hi Angelina. You wrote "A planned/orchestrated bankruptcy is FRAUD. There is nothing wrong when you realize you are over your head, to organize or plan the best way to bk." These two sentences are contradictory. It sounds as if you are saying that once you realize you are in trouble you can plan the best path to BK, however if you plan BK you are committing fraud. Are you saying that everyone who waits 90 days before filing is committing fraud?

If I decide to file bankruptcy then I will organize and plan the best way to bankruptcy. Until that time, that time when I've given up all hope, I should be able to live life as I want.

"Your first post stating you don't intend to commit fraud is the tip-off of the fact that you intend to exactly do that..." I haven't committed any fraud and I don't intend to. Be careful when you claim facts. You seem angry. Is it because I haven't filed, because I'm trying not to file, because I'm choosing to remodel my house, because I'm going to be paying off these remodeling charges for years, or something else?

"Don't come back for more advice once you get yourself into a worse mess." Thank you for being so helpful.

[discombob1]

Notme, I think part of the problem is your statement "until that time, that time when I've given up all hope, I should be able to live life as I like." It is true that you can do as you like, this is a free country. However, you know at some time in the near future that you may be forced into bankruptcy. You "hope" that does not occur. I hope for your sake it doesn't. However knowing of this possibility you plan to charge $10K that you may not pay off. This is confirmed by the fact that you have consulted BK attornies.

There is a difference between planning a BK and planning to charge large purchases that will be included in BK. Those who have planned BK's on this forum specifically did not do this. You indicate you may. I suspect that to many on this forum it appears that you hope not to file but given what you have described, a filing is inevitable. Therefore, your statements make it appear that you do intend to charge large items without paying them off. This fits the very definition of fraud.

I do not know you, your situation, nor your intentions. All I can tell you is that as an outsider looking in your description of the events appears to be one of an individual seeking to defraud creditors without facing consequences. Take it for what it is worth, which is a stranger's opinion from the Internet based on limited facts. Best of luck to you.

[Flamingo]

"a BK attorney can only work with you if you are insolvent" .. Not true. You do not have to be insolvent to file BK. The equity you have in your home, up to the maximum allowed by your state, and exempt property under the code, are protected assets. These can be greater than your debts. If that is the case, you are not insolvent. If your diminished ability to pay those debts are within the parameters of the means test, any competent BK attorney will certainly handle your case.

A BK attorney will not file bankruptcy for anyone if they do not qualify to file bankruptcy. People that qualify to file bankruptcy are broke or "insolvent" and that is determined by a review of their finances and assets/debts. A BK attorney will not work with a person who makes too much money to file or does not qualify to file in other respects. BK attorneys are not financial counselors/planners and what the OP needs here is financial guidance as to her present financial position as to what she feels may happen in the near future. She would not go to a BK attorney for that advice as right now she does not appear to be "insolvent" or "broke."

[AngelinaCatHub]

Hi Angelina. You wrote "A planned/orchestrated bankruptcy is FRAUD. There is nothing wrong when you realize you are over your head, to organize or plan the best way to bk." These two sentences are contradictory. It sounds as if you are saying that once you realize you are in trouble you can plan the best path to BK, however if you plan BK you are committing fraud. Are you saying that everyone who waits 90 days before filing is committing fraud?

If I decide to file bankruptcy then I will organize and plan the best way to bankruptcy. Until that time, that time when I've given up all hope, I should be able to live life as I want.

"Your first post stating you don't intend to commit fraud is the tip-off of the fact that you intend to exactly do that..." I haven't committed any fraud and I don't intend to. Be careful when you claim facts. You seem angry. Is it because I haven't filed, because I'm trying not to file, because I'm choosing to remodel my house, because I'm going to be paying off these remodeling charges for years, or something else?

"Don't come back for more advice once you get yourself into a worse mess." Thank you for being so helpful.

I posted: If you find yourself in bankruptcy there is nothing wrong with planning your best strategy to get through a rough time with as little stress. To Orchestrate a bankruptcy and intend to spend Credit Card money for the points or other excuses instead of saving and using your own money is Orchestrating a plan that you are attempting to review or get affirmation from this forum. The fact that you have already talked to bk lawyers, and you know the bk laws and look backs well, such as the 90 day look back, don't plan on only 90 days if what you do land you in fraud. Your whole thread is an excuse to do wrong and you are getting good advice and arguing against every suggestion except what you wish to do. Use other peoples money, let it time out, and file bk. You are fooling yourself when you state you don't plan to bankrupt. You are here looking for ways to 'work the system' and I meant it when I said if you file and get caught, don't come back here to have us help you unspin the web you are weaving for yourself. That's the best advice you will get from me and I am not angry at all. Just "matter of fact". 'Hub

[Freddy03]

I posted: If you find yourself in bankruptcy there is nothing wrong with planning your best strategy to get through a rough time with as little stress. To Orchestrate a bankruptcy and intend to spend Credit Card money for the points or other excuses instead of saving and using your own money is Orchestrating a plan that you are attempting to review or get affirmation from this forum. The fact that you have already talked to bk lawyers, and you know the bk laws and look backs well, such as the 90 day look back, don't plan on only 90 days if what you do land you in fraud. Your whole thread is an excuse to do wrong and you are getting good advice and arguing against every suggestion except what you wish to do. Use other peoples money, let it time out, and file bk. You are fooling yourself when you state you don't plan to bankrupt. You are here looking for ways to 'work the system' and I meant it when I said if you file and get caught, don't come back here to have us help you unspin the web you are weaving for yourself. That's the best advice you will get from me and I am not angry at all. Just "matter of fact". 'Hub

I completely agree. If the OP does not "plan" on filing BK then why is she here????

[Notmeplease]

....given what you have described, a filing is inevitable.

Seriously? Why? Why in the world would I file if things stay as they are? How is this inevitable? Everyone appears to be so quick to come to that conclusion however no one has given me any explanation why it is inevitable. Because you did it? Is that why you think I'm going to file? Because you filed?

[ValleYum]

Seriously? Why? Why in the world would I file if things stay as they are? How is this inevitable? Everyone appears to be so quick to come to that conclusion however no one has given me any explanation why it is inevitable. Because you did it? Is that why you think I'm going to file? Because you filed?

Seriously? Why? Why do you keep coming back here to defend yourself against what strangers on the internet think of you or what you do? I mean, really. There is a red X up in the right corner of your screen. Click it and you never have to worry about what we think again.

IMHO, this quote from Hamlet sums up why the regular posters think you are here for permission or affirmation or hints on how to defraud your creditors, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

[Notmeplease]

I completely agree. If the OP does not "plan" on filing BK then why is she here????

Planning for all contingencies. I already explained this. Life is a chess game. I plan for the worst case situation so that I'm never caught off guard. My intention with posting was to find out how long after I made the charges do I need to take BK off the table in the plan of life. From the few posts that actually addressed my specific question, instead of jumping all over the "inevitable" and "you are a bad person" argument, it appears it will be at least six months. If there is a BK in my future it will be much further out than that, so I don't foresee any problems.

[Freddy03]

Planning for all contingencies. I already explained this. Life is a chess game. I plan for the worst case situation so that I'm never caught off guard. My intention with posting was to find out how long after I made the charges do I need to take BK off the table in the plan of life. From the few posts that actually addressed my specific question, instead of jumping all over the "inevitable" and "you are a bad person" argument, it appears it will be at least six months. If there is a BK in my future it will be much further out than that, so I don't foresee any problems.

Well you seem to have it all planned out so I see no further reason to keep replying to this thread.

[AngelinaCat]

This thread has run its course and is now closed.