Can certain creditors pursue criminal "theft of service" charges?

[sealpup]

I am dealing with a surly creditor who is threatening to find something to pursue criminal charges for since they learned of our immenent bk filing. I have given him our lawyers name and number and told him he needs to speak with them, but he continues to contact us via phone and email.
I just learned what "theft of service" charges are. The debt with this particular creditor was incurred long before we even considered filing bk, and about 80% of the total debt has been paid over a year ago. I don't see how it can be proven that we used their services knowing that we were not going to pay them- which from what I understand is part of "theft of service".
Can certain creditors- such as plumbers, contractors, utility companies, hospitals or other medical providers, etc, pursue criminal "theft of service" charges once they are included in your bk? I realize bk is civil protection, not criminal. But it almost seems that creditors could do this in retaliation to not being paid and the bk filing. And that if they can claim "theft of service", why can't other creditors- such as credit card companies and pursue the same criminal claim (since they did provide a service- lending $ to you, and will not be paid back for it)? Where is the line drawn?
This also worries me b/c I was in the ER twice last month and ended up being hospitalized for 2 days. I worry that the hospital could do something like this as well. I have read about certain hospitals in the midwest pursuing such charges against indigent patients (non-bk related). I think it would be quite obvious that I didn't intentionally defraud the hospital out of their $ by having a kidney stone, seeking treatment and knowing I was going to file bk. (I do have insurance, but it's not that great). If my surly creditor did pursue charges like this, would an investigator, judge, etc, see him pursuing this as an act of retaliation?

[discombob1]

I am not an attorney so bear that in mind. That being said... stop worrying. Theft of services is like when you fill your gas tank and drive off, or eat a meal and run out on the bill. Also, no prosecutor will agree to press charges for that, the court system is overwhelmed as is. They will not get anywhere with that threat.

Also my guess is the hospitals charging indigent people are probably targeting drug-seekers.

[IamOld]

I agree with discombob - actually the Wall Street Journal ran a magnificent expose a few years back about supposedly NON-profit hospitals in the midwest literally hounding indigent and poor patients to death to pay up...needless to say after the WSJ exposed this, they supposedly stopped...

[chrisdfw]

don't worry, the person threatening that most likely is just angry and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

discharging a debt is not theft of service. Ask if they are threatening criminal action in an attempt to collect a debt in violation of the federal fair debt collection practices act? Tell them surely they aren't doing that since it is illegal and they can be sued.

[rustymich]

They will say anything to scare you into paying,they can continue to call unless you have a bk case number filed,or a cert letter is mailed to the to stop..

[nokia123]

another scare tactic, nothing to worry about. Keep in mind they will do whatever it takes to get there money.

[frogger]

There are some cases in which theft of services charges can be filed. If you would give more detail on exactly what is being talked about, I might have a better answer for you. If you don't want to do it in public, send it to me via pm and then we can discuss it on this thread.

[frogger]

OK - sealpup gave me a lot of details in a pm that is best served by not talking about it here on the board, but let's sum this up in a nutshell:

The person threatening "theft of services" charges is an individual/company that was performing services. With that being said, this person does not have a leg to stand on for filing any type of charges. What this person could potentially have is a civil case, which bk is going to wipe out.

The reason that I questioned you more as to what the deal is, there are certain cases in which you can be charged with theft of services, but that is very limited to things such as public utilities and the like, in which someone might have illegally hooked up power/water, etc. There is a provision in which the police can and will write you a citation for "theft of services", much like a traffic ticket.

A citation of this type for theft of services would compel you to to go to court, would be a fine of around $800.00 (in my area), and you would be guilty of a misdemeanor.

This does not apply in your case. Tell the guy to pound sand...........

[sealpup]

Thanks to everyone for your responses!
Thanks frogger for listening to the details and making this more clear. That makes sense.
I feel a bit relieved, but I'm sure like many of us, I don't think I will be able to take a deep breath until after we are discharged! My mind keeps thinking of all the different scenarios that could happen and I can't get this out of my head

[frogger]

I feel a bit relieved, but I'm sure like many of us, I don't think I will be able to take a deep breath until after we are discharged!

And that is understandable. When you deep in the bowels of bankruptcy, you feel like you're the only one in the world that has ever been in your situation, that the world is crushing down on you, and that no one understands what you're going thru.

We've been there, done that, and learned, just as you are learning.

You will be fine, and when it's all said, done, and discharged, hang around and help others that are in your situation as well.

And remember......

BK is a process, not an event.

You are no more special in this process than anyone else.

[BigJohn]

To the original poster, send him a certified letter asking him to verify the 'theft of services' charges. I got a feeling you will not hear from him again.

[considering7]

Let's say on January 1st you realize that BK might be an option for you. You meet with a lawyer on January 10th, have a plumber do a repair on the 25th, and file BK on February 12th.

Any debts you incur AFTER the day you start to consider bankruptcy is questionable. If you hired the plumber with full intentions of including his debt in a BK, that might be consider a criminal act or at the very least fradulent in the Trustee's view, and could jeapardize your case.

In my example above, January 1st or 10th might be considered the day from which that point forward you cannot incur any additional debts.

[catleg]

I believe in paying off people for services delivered as a matter of integrity. If you lend money as your business that's another story.
That said, if you provide services, occasionally you'll get screwed, mostly when big corporations file for BK.
There is a big bankrupcty going on, I think it's Blockbuster, where some hedge fund has arranged a 363 sale of the business to leave nothing behind for trade creditors. This sucks.
As an individual you can include the debt in your bankruptcy and pay it off afterwards even if it is discharged.

P.S. The general rule of thumb for stuff like casino markers is that if you file for BK without any criminal action started, they don't pursue it. But if it goes to the DA first then you have problems.

[kornellred]

There is no such thing as theft of medical services. Almost all hospital charters are granted upon the stipulation that medical care must be given, on an emergency basis, regardless of the patient's ability to pay. So forget about that entirely.
A creditor can file an adversarial procedure if they think that they can prove that you obtained money, goods, or services from them when you were certain that you were insolvent at the time. The burden of proof is on the creditor. Of course, it goes without saying that most bk filers who have a mountain of unsecured debt knew that they would never be able to pay it off long before they decided to file for bankruptcy. Creditors can never prove that, except if the debtor leaves an obvious trial of dubious transactions.

[bcohen]

I agree with the above poster. It is not a rare occurrence that high medical bills--especially stemming from a chronic illness, accident, or injury--cause a person to file for bankruptcy. If it was really true that hospitals and doctors could file criminal "theft of services" charges, then a lot of your friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. would be in prison now!

That being said, even if the items (or services) in question were non-essential, luxury items, and even if the creditor had a slam-dunk case that you took on the debt knowing full well that you'd be filing for bankruptcy, they still would not have basis for criminal charges. They could, of course, file an adversarial proceeding in that case, to prevent you from discharging the debt in bankruptcy, but that's about it.

Although original creditors are not subject to the FDCPA, they are still bound by the FCRA, as well as state consumer-protection laws. Threatening false criminal charge is a clear violation, and recording these telephone calls could be advantageous in case the creditor keeps harassing you, especially after the bankruptcy is filed.