Chapter 13 or try to somehow find a way to get into a 7??

[LadyInTheRed]

BTW, CA is a non-recourse state only in regards to the first mortgage. And then only if it is the original mortgage, which means that if you refinanced the bank can come after you if you default and they can't sell the house for what you owe on it.

If the 2nd was taken for the original purchase of the home, it is also non-recourse.

i'm not sure exactly what my monthly plan payment would be... but I assume in general, it would be far less than the combined total of my $1000/month student loan payment $2000/month credit card payments, and $650/month second mortgage payments...

My plan payment is far less than the total of my monthly CC payments and stripped 2nd mortgage payment were.

is it possible to be in a ch 13 and actually have money left over.. so that in reality, there is money left over each month to actually go out to dinner once a month, or save some money...

Yes, it's possible. Nobody will check to make sure you are living according to the budget proposed in your petition. You can cut expenses where you are able and save the money. A good attorney will create a plan with wiggle room. After 11 months in a 13, I have not experienced any form of "trustee hell." I just send my payment in every month and go on with my life with more cash available every month to pay expenses than before I filed.

Given the information that you gave me, if I were in your shoes, I would go with the Chapter 13 and stripping the 2nd mortgage. Especially since it is less than what rent is. And from what I have read, rent is on its way up. But that's me. You have to decide for yourself what the best course of action is for you.

I agree. I may have been able to get into a 7, but I like my house and can afford it without the 2nd. I have a very secure job and even if I did lose it, I wouldn't have to move to find other employment. I can't rent anything comparable for less than my 1st, insurance and property tax and would be happy living here the rest of my life. So the fact that I am about $80k underwater even without the 2nd isn't an issue for me. Even if the market value never increases, I won't be underwater forever. My house will be paid off at about the same time I reach retirement age.

If you decide keeping your house isn't the right decision for you or you are comfortable keeping it without stripping the 2nd, you might want to consult with more attorneys about getting into a 7. You may even find some willing to run the means test for less than $1,000.

As far as continuing to make CC payments, if you know you will be filing BK, I'm not sure why an attorney would tell you to keep paying, except to give you enough time for whatever planning you need to do. Since you don't need a homestead exemption and you don't have equity in your cars, you can save a nice chunk of cash using California's exemption system 2 if you don't have any other assets you need the wildcard to cover. So, you could stop paying CCs (and even your second mortgage) and save the money until you either reach the exemption level or somebody sues you. Just keep in mind that as soon as you are 30 days late, you'll have to start dealing with calls from creditors (check stickies and the collections forum for tips on dealing with that). If you want to wait until your salary decreases and try for a 7, you may want to keep paying so you aren't forced to file before you are ready. You can even save more than the exempt amount as long as your plan will pay to your unsecured creditors at least the value of your non-exempt assets over the 60 months. Once your plan is confirmed, you could use that cash you saved to make monthly student loan payments or make one big payment. It won't cover all of your student loan payments during the plan, but it will help lessen the accumulated interest. It's good to also keep some cash in case you need it during your plan.

One person did post on here recently that they were able to include their monthly student loan payments either in their budget or in the payments the trustee made. It doesn't seem to be how student loans are typically handled in a Chap 13, but you may want to ask attorneys familiar with the local Chap 13 trustee whether that is a possibility for you.

[LadyInTheRed]

assume I decide to go intoa 13... do they calculate the % that an unsecured creditor gets based on the GROSS amount you owe them, or based on the monthly amount you pay?

Unsecured creditors are paid according to the amount you owe. The monthly payment you made before filing doesn't make a difference. But, student loan debt is priority debt and may not get treated the same as other unsecured debt. I don't know how all that works because I had no priority debt.

unless the trustee sets my payment so high that I am choked to death and can barely make it..

It is not the trustee who sets your payment. You propose a payment in your plan and if the trustee doesn't like it, your attorney negotiates with the trustee to try to come up with an amended plan that will keep the trustee from objecting. If no agreement is reached and the trustee objects to the plan, the judge makes the final decision. That's why its important to have a good attorney who is willing to stand up to the trustee if necessary and fight for a livable plan. The plan should give you a pretty tight budget, but it should not choke you to death. It is not meant to be putative.

[curiousbk]

if a person does a ch 7, do they lose their house? our house is upside down. not sure if a 7 would mean we have to give it up and move? and if so, how long would we be able to stay in it rent free in foreclosure? honestly, keeping our house long term woudl probably be better.. if I did a 13, I'd wind up with a hosue payment that is less than rent. i'd be saving money every month vs having to buy another house or rent one similar to mine.. and i have to admit, my hosue is very very nice.

we are current on everything except one card..and we are only behind a couple omonths on it. we are current on the mortgage - both first and second, both the cars, and the rest of the credit cards..but it's tight.. what is really happening is we are paying the credit cards, the house, the cars..but often, we are negative at the end of the month, and the credit card balances increase.

we have somem cash we pocketed after selling one asset.. we had owend three cars up until recently.. and we realized that was a big fat $$ drain so we sold it and had about 5k cash after all was said and done. some months, we've had to tap into that "cash" to make ends meet.... so while we are current, our monthly expenses are exceeding income.

if we could stop paying on a lot of those bills..we could stockpile a LOT of cash prior to BK. are we allowed to do that? say I ddin't make my house payment on the second for a couple of months, or got behind on the cars.. or stopped paying all the credit cards for like 3-6 months.. or however long... if I didn't pay the cars, the student loan, the credit cards.. basically allth stuff that I know wil go into the plan... heck, I could probably amass $10-15k in a matter of 3-6 months... if I socked that into a checking account.. or savings account, or just took it out as cash and had it in my closet.... am I allowed to do that? can I get in ytrouble for doing that?

i'm not suggesting i go out and buy stuff on my credit cards.. but given that I still have an income.. if I just stopped paying them... i'd be keeping that money in my pocket. i'd be able to use some of it to purchase items I foresee i might need over the next 5 years when i'm in a paln.. for example, my main household computer is old... crap. we havne't bought anothe rone b/c we are broke. if i skipped car payments one month I could et a new computer that would meet our needs - wife is in school, son in school, etc... a computer is a necessity.. i don't need a mac pro but something that isn't a snail would help... is that somethign I"m allowd to do, CAN do.. or woudl that get me in trouble wiht a trustee?

say I don't pay the cars... and I pocket cash over the next 3-6 months... and use it to buy things like a computer, or repair m y car.. i have a nice car but they need stuff.. one nees new tires, that's like $1000 if you replace with what is on the car now.. even $500-800 if i get "cheaper" tires... can I buy things like that before I go into BK or will the trustee see that I neglected servicing debt.. see that I amassed cash, and then it "disappeared" via buhying things for cash, or off my debit cards....

i coudl pay my lawyer that way too... i don't want to do anything crooked, but i know there is a difference between between tactically planning before Bk and fraud. i honestly don't know if I will file BK.. i'm considerin git, i've talked to lawyers, but part of me wonders if I could get out of it on my own... i don't paln to rack up debt on my CC and then file.. i kmnow that is fraud and I don't plan to do it.. but if at some point i decide I probably will file BK, and I stop pahing creditors and keep that cash in myh poicket, are there restictions on what I can do with it? what I shoudl do with it?

i wouldn't want to do stuff that ticks off a trustee and scres me in the long run. at the same time, if it is allowable to stockpile some money, amek alast minute necessity purchases, or save it ... i'd be dumb to just rush into BK without making tactical changes/plans to maximize the benefit the BK provides me.

i'm not going to buy tickets to hawii or a fur coat for hte wife.. but there is a lot of stuff I could do/buy with that money that would benfit ME vs. serrvice debt for the creditors... what is allowable ?

sounds liek a 13 might be the way to go. if I could stop paying now, save up some money for a few months, then have a plan that allows a decent standard of living, lets me keep my cars, my house, and at the end of 5 years, my second is gone, cars are paid, CC gone... i'd be in such a better financial position it woudl be great. if I could then continue that type of budgeting / practical lving.. i'd have a LOT of money left over eadch month that I would save/invest..and be able to have a very nice quality of life...

thanks everyone!

[LadyInTheRed]

If you file a Chap 7 you can keep your house as long as you stay current on payments. Since you are underwater, assuming the 2nd is with a different lender than the 1st, you could stop paying the second as they will not foreclose if they won't get anything out of it. You can try to settle with the second because if the debt is discharged in a Chap 7 and they don't settle and you decide stop paying, they have to wait until you sell the house to get paid. There is some risk in this strategy because if you don't settle with the 2nd and you later have equity in your house, the 2nd would foreclose as soon as they decide it is worth while.

If you can't pay your expenses without using a credit card, you need to either cut expenses or stop paying on the credit cards. You really should tear up your credit cards now and figure out how to live without them, whether you file BK or not.

Yes, you can accumulate cash as long as you don't try to hide it. Just make sure you don't deposit it in a bank who you owe money to. If you put cash in your closet, make sure to tell your attorney so it can be listed as an asset on your petition. The system 2 wild card exemption is $23,250. If you aren't familiar with CA exemptions (you chose either system 1 or 2), see my blog.

Many people stop paying cc's when they decide to file and spend the cash they save on necessities like car repairs, attorney fees, home repairs, deferred dental or medical procedures, etc. This is good BK planning that will help you get through your 60 month plan. Just don't buy any luxuries or go on a spending spree and make sure anything you buy can be exempted. I bought a $500 computer a couple of months before filing and it wasn't a problem. I believe purchases over $600 have to be reported on your petition, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't make them. Run your planned spending by an attorney just to make sure you don't do anything to raise red flags.

If you stop paying on your cars, you risk them being repossessed. With the exception of an underwater 2nd mortgage, it's better to keep paying debts on assets you want to keep. I could see stopping payment on secured assets a month or 2 before filing, but keep in mind that the arrears will increase what your minimum plan payment will need to be to have a feasible plan.

[curiousbk]

do I have to report or tell them what I spend the money on - if I stop paying CCs? for example, if I think I may file BK in teh future, and stop paying on CCs and the second mortgage. If I did that over 6 months, it would save me about 2500/month. so in six months, that's a lot of money. I honestly don't think I could spend all of it even if I wanted to.... not without doing stupid stuff like buying total firvolous things.... if I saved that money, and could keep some of it - i could have a emergency fund.. i mean what if I'm half way through my plan, living on a tight budget and my car breaks down... each is on warranty now but will NOT be on a warranty at the end of 5 years.. so 3.5 years into my plan, my tranny goes out and I need $4000 to fix it.. b/c buying anothe rcar won't be an option.... i'd need some money saved / on the side to cover that stuff.

what if I did buy a computer. say i bought a basic imac.. it's liike $1000. is that going to trigger flags?

if I buy tires for my car at $1000 is that going to create flags?

i'm sure buying a rolex is a the kind of stuff stupid people do that raises major flags... but at what point does it look like abuse vs what point would the trustee/court just aknowledge that you knew you were going to go into BK, and you were doing what I suspect eveyrone else does..and that is stop paying the CC, amass some money, make the purchases you want/need pre-BK and then file?

lady - thanks a bunch for the info.

a copule other questions. i live in CA. so cal. if I file, do I get to pay the trustee on my own, like via check, or a debit from my checking account or will they garnish my wages? i don't want wage garnishment, just for personal reasons..so my employer wouldn't know about it.

where is your blog? i'd like to read it.

if I do file 13.... i know it will tank my credit for a while, but honestly, i think y credit already stinks. i did the home loan mod abou ta year ago..and I had to stop paying them for a few months.. tey filed a default on me..and I know my credit score took a huge dump. i have not tried to run my credit..but i know my score has gone down. in thinking that we would not be able to quality for a car loan, we bought our car off the lease, and sold my OLD totally worn out crap car and bought a CPO used car on my wife's credit.. it was 25k... great car..great price... i coudl have boght a civic..but what can i say.. i like nicer cars. that's partically why we are in the mess we are... spending too much...

how long can I stop paying on the credit cards before I file BK?

also - here is a really good question - i know once I stop paying the CC, they will shut them off, that's fine. but they will JACK the interst rate sky hihg.. a couple are alraedy high so who cares, but a couple are lower...more "normal" APRs..... if I tried to pay them off on my own.. they woudl be compuonding huge interest on m e month after monht.. but if I file ch 13.. i assume it doesn't really m atter if the CC is at 5% or 25%.. the lawyer/trustee will work out what the total owed is.. then figure out what the CC will ge tpaid back, and that's it. they can charge me 100% interst if htey want and they are only going to get back what they get back.. so my point is.. ny stoping payment... even though teh CC company will want to punish me/ deter me by jacking up the % rate.. it really won't matter as long as I do file a chp 13..?

can anyone file a ch 13 and get rejected and told no? i mean, can a person NOT qualify fo ra ch 13 BK and have their case dismissed? i don't want to amke these plans to file,a nd the find out that somenow I don't qualify... no lawyer I met with said there was any possibility I coudln't file and woudl not qualify.. i guess the only questionw oudl be under the ch `13 means test - how mch would my payment be...

one lawyer sugested it might be $1000/month... but that wasn't considering that the 2nd was being striped...

is there an online means test for figureing out what my ch 13 payment would be? i have seen anonline means test to see if I qualify for ch 13, but i was todl that the "means test" for figuring out what your ch 13 payment will be is different...

thanks. a TON!

[helpmeout]

Regarding the house and a Chapter 7, you can keep the house as long as you are current on the mortgage. And if the 2nd mortgage is at the same bank, you would probably have to be current on that one as well. The difference is that you will have to eventually pay off both mortgages to keep the house or get the 2nd to settle.

As for any cash stockpiled before any type of bankruptcy, well that becomes part of the bk estate and unless you can exempt it, the Trustee will take it to pay creditors. It doesn't matter which type of BK you file.

Regarding buying a computer, that is an asset that you would have to be able to exempt to keep.

[curiousbk]

where do I find out the general exemption amounts for my state/county?

[curiousbk]

ok.... i went to the nolo website.. plugged in ALL my info, and it says I do NOT PASS the means test. it says my disposable income is $1286/month and I could pay $77k in a 5 year plan.

those numbers included my 2nd of $650, which will get stripped in a ch 13. i am under the belief that when they calculate my plan payment, the second will NOT be considred as an excluded expense, since it is being stripped, so my paln payment will go up. but does it go up by $650?

my other question is this - the test I did online was the ch 7 means test. is the "means test" or plan payment test - whatever it's called - for figuring out what I will actually pay in a chapter 13 plan - the SAME or is it different. for example.. if the ch7 means test calculator says I have 1200/month dispoable income, is THAT exactly what I'll end up paying in a ch 13 plan, or in relaity, do the ch 13 plans come in with lower or higher numbers???

in my case - would you expect that I'll be pyaing 1200/month, more or less. and since the 650 second will be "in the plan"... how will that affect my plan payment?

even if I had to pay 1200/month - that would be TONS less than what I pay now. now I'm paying 1500-2000 JUST for Credit Cards, 1000 for my student loan, and 650 on the second. that's as much as 3540/month. if I was paying 1200/month, I'd have over $2000 free each month... i could handle that.... or is the trustee going to realize that and jack the crap out of my payment so that they take all that money...??

thanks.

[BKAttyMI]

Curious, if none of the lawyers you visited gave you a better understanding or idea of what you could expect in a 13, you really need to see another attorney. I can generally give any clients an estimated payment amount at a consult meeting for free. As far as the student loans, it really depends on your local trustee's rules/practice. I am generally able to put student loans into the plan as part of the budget.

As far as my own student loans, I make the minimum payment every month, about $800.00. Sadly, there isn't much you can do unless you're making enough to up those payments monthly. For women it's even worse, if they want to take a break from work for maternity leave, etc., what do you do? Deferral? I still don't know the answer. Higher education has its advantages, but I suggest everyone be very careful when taking out student loans to make sure they will be able to pay them off in their chosen career field.

[LadyInTheRed]

where is your blog? i'd like to read it.

To the left of my post, under my avatar, the bottom line says "blog entries: 3" Click on the 3.

[momofthree]

those numbers included my 2nd of $650, which will get stripped in a ch 13. i am under the belief that when they calculate my plan payment, the second will NOT be considred as an excluded expense, since it is being stripped, so my paln payment will go up. but does it go up by $650?

Yes, it will go up by that amount, so you'd be looking at a payment of around $1286 + $650 = $1936. HOWEVER, depending on your district, you may be able to use your schedules (I & J) to base your payment off of and since you use your actual expense amounts on that rather than the standard arbitrary amounts, you can end up with a lower payment that way. For example, the means test only allows the standard $496 car payment, I believe you said one of your car payments is slightly more than that, if your medical expenses are more, or your utility expenses, etc. that can all be listed on your schedule J. Schedule J even has line items for recreation and home maintenance, etc which I don't believe are listed on the means test.

As far as the other questions in this thread, as far as how tight your budget is required to be, it's pretty liberal. To give you an example, we only claimed about 1/3 of the IRS standards for food/clothing/household supplies and have still managed to not only live comfortably, but have saved nearly $4000 in cash in the year since we've filed! If we could have claimed the full standards (like you'll be able to do), we could have saved 3 times that amount--or at least lived it up a lot more, lol! Of course, if you're used to living high on the hog off of credit, then it will be an adjustment, but if you're like most of us getting ready to file bk, haven't bought new clothes in a long time, putting off medical expenses and general home maintenance, then the ch.13 budget feels so liberating! We live much better in our ch.13 than we did before we filed when we were trying to pay all our debt....

Most districts do not allow you to include your student loan payments in your plan. They go into deferment during your 13. BUT, they will not prevent you from sending in payments to your student loans on your own. Like I posted above, the budget they allow you is pretty liberal, it probably wouldn't be too tough to save a few hundred bucks in other areas of your budget so that you can send in a payment to your SL each month on the side. Once your budget is approved, the trustee doesn't stand over your shoulder and make sure you follow it. As long as you send in your payment each month, they really don't care what you do with your money.

As far as if you should keep paying your bills. I'd continue to pay your mortgage and car payments, but stop paying on any debt that will be discharged in bk, which for you is your 2nd mortgage and all unsecured debts. Save that money. CA has a very generous wildcard that you can use to exempt $23k of personal property, including cash. This is in addition to all of the other exemptions for your household goods, autos, etc. Save as much as you can.

As a side note, don't pay any extra money to your student loan at this point. That's hog behavior. In the bk world there's a saying that pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. There are people that get the bright idea to use all their extra funds to pay down non-dischargeable debt, or money they owe to relatives, etc. before filing. The trustee will find out and can go after that money. You're better off just keeping the cash in your account. You can pay those debts back after filing if you so choose. ;)

[catleg]

You are better off with a 7 and I'm just wild ass guessing that maybe you can qualify, especially if you find you're close, take out some additional term life insurance or disability insurance.
If you do get stuck in a 13 you can minimize your payments by jacking up your 401k contributions (assuming you can afford it) and possibly taking out a 401k loan to apply towards the student loans.
Not sure if your pension is a 401k though.
Take your time and don't rush into anything, plan, plan, plan.
You might consider searching for posts by treehugger1 on having high income and high student loans.

[curiousbk]

thanks for the info. i'll go see another lawyer and see what I find out.

let me ask a couple questions related to what I shoudl or should not do prior to filing.

1) if I stop paying my credit cards, and second mortgage before filing, HOW MANY MONTHS can I do that for before I file? shoudl I do it for 3 monts? 6 months? if I pulled that off for 6 months, just the second and CC will save me something like 2500/month.. in six months, that would be a nice chunk of change. if I need to make purchases prior to my BK filing, woudl I be able to do it? like if I need a new computer, or need anew piece of furniture, or need to make repairs to my car - can I spend some of that money on those items - even though some of them are not "life n ecessities".. or will it screw me over in teh BK?

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I am about to go into BK...and I stop paying stuff... and then I have extra cash in my accounts and I use THAT money (NOT using the Credit cards) ... does it matter what I buy or spend it on? is a trustee going to see I bought a computer or a couch and flip out on me? I mean I coudl take cash out of the bank and pay cash and they can't see it.. but I coudl imagein they would ask me. what did you do with the $2000 you withdrew from the bank...

2) if they adjust my budget based on waht my ACTUAL car payment is - then why don't I go out and try to qualify for a newer/better car! i don't know if I can qualify..but if I have a $400 car payment now for a nice car, why the hell woudln't I wan to go out and get a $500-600 car payment.. if I"m going to be in teh plan for 5 years... and HOW MUCH I pay creditors is going to be dictated by how much is "left over".. well then hell.. why not have LESS left over for the creditors by just buyhing myself better stuff?!?!?

i can't imagien the BK courts would allow this, but so much of what I have seen in the BK world is a$$ backwards... i mean we have two relatively nice japanese vehicles. both are financed..and we owe about 20-25k on each. payment on one is 450, payment on other is 550. for all I know I might be able to upgrade one of them.. not that I need a new vehicle.. but if I am going to be stuck in a 13 plan for 5 years...and they are goig to let me deduct my actual car expenses... why not get a better car. is there a cap on how much your car payment can be?

what's to stop someone from getting a 911 and a 7 series right before they go itno 13... they have $2000 / month in car payments.. oppps.. ig ues not much is left over for creditors... and you get to keep hot rods during a 13? i can't imagine that is how it works???

as a final comment.. it seems odd I am able to stop paying creditors.. amass cash... and then keep it in the BK.. if the whole idea of the BK is to get money back to the creditors.. but then they let me keep over $20k of cash...
does that exemption only apply to cash or is it all propoerty combined? like my hosuehold furnishings, jewelry, etc?

am I better off to be in decent cars with 3-4 years left to pay on them, or get into a new one? i think i remember reading if the car was bought less thna 910 days before filing, you have to pay the while thing off w/in the plan.. so i guess if yo buy cars that just cost too muhc, you can't afford them and you can't afford your plan... but that would be for the moron who buys crazy $$ cars. what's to stop me from buhing slightly newer/better cars so that my overall monthly payment is only up a couple hundred bucks... wouldn't that just mean I pay $200 LeSS to the unsecured creditors?

let me know if I am right or wrong? i don't want to do anything crooked or dishonest.. but if you can play by the rules and come out ahead.. why not?!?

[helpmeout]

There is a limit on the amount that you can claim for a car payment, and the $550 may be over that amount but since that is what it has been for a couple of years it may be allowed. A computer purchase probably won't be an issue as long as it is not done with a credit card. But it will be an asset that you will have to exempt to keep, especially with a Chapter 7. There is also a set amount for car expenses (such as gas and maintenance) that is allowed each month. You would have to provide proof of actual cost if it goes higher than that.

What you really should do right now is track all of your expenses for 2 months. Write every single purchase down. That will help you see where you can get your budget lower. Because you will end up in the same spot you are in right now if you don't fix your budget issues regardless of which Chapter you file for.

As for going out and getting more insurance before filing a BK, well, that may be a good idea if you are planning on filing at least a year after getting it. Same goes for increasing any 401K contributions. In fact, there is a very real possibility that contributions to a 401K may not be allowed. Or only a certain amount and any recent increase in the contribution is going to raise a red flag. While the Trustee can't go after the 401K, the Trustee doesn't have to allow contributions in the budget, either. In fact, when I completed my forms, my attorney did not put my 401K contribution on there at all, just my health insurance. If you can prove that it is mandatory (a condition of your employment by your employer), it will probably be allowed.

[momofthree]

You've been asking the same questions all over the boards, but I'll answer again.

1) if I stop paying my credit cards, and second mortgage before filing, HOW MANY MONTHS can I do that for before I file? shoudl I do it for 3 monts? 6 months?

You can do this until you get sued, at that point you will want to file to avoid your paycheck being garnished or your bank account levied. For some, it only takes a few months before this happens, others have been able to go years. It just depends on your creditors.

if I pulled that off for 6 months, just the second and CC will save me something like 2500/month.. in six months, that would be a nice chunk of change. if I need to make purchases prior to my BK filing, woudl I be able to do it? like if I need a new computer, or need anew piece of furniture, or need to make repairs to my car - can I spend some of that money on those items - even though some of them are not "life n ecessities".. or will it screw me over in teh BK?

Your may want to spend some time looking over your bk exemptions for CA. http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankrup...=CA#exemptions (You'll look at system 2) While they are quite liberal, the household goods exemption covers items that are worth up to $550 each. So, yes, you can run out and buy items that are worth up to that amount and be able to exempt them. If anything is over that amount, you'll need to use the wildcard to cover it. The wildcard also covers any cash you want to keep in the bank, so it's up to you as to whether you want to use that wildcard to exempt cash or stuff.

Any household repairs/maintenance, car repairs/maintenance, medical expenses, and general living expenses (car insurance, groceries, etc) can be paid without question. Just be sure to use cash and not credit.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I am about to go into BK...and I stop paying stuff... and then I have extra cash in my accounts and I use THAT money (NOT using the Credit cards) ... does it matter what I buy or spend it on? is a trustee going to see I bought a computer or a couch and flip out on me? I mean I coudl take cash out of the bank and pay cash and they can't see it.. but I coudl imagein they would ask me. what did you do with the $2000 you withdrew from the bank...

As long as you can exempt anything you buy, you'll be fine. Keep in mind though, that in CA, you can exempt a lot of cash too, so you'll be making a choice between keeping cash (which is very helpful during the course of a ch.13) or buying stuff (unless that stuff is under the $550 per item household goods exemption, which is basically unlimited).

2) if they adjust my budget based on waht my ACTUAL car payment is - then why don't I go out and try to qualify for a newer/better car! i don't know if I can qualify..but if I have a $400 car payment now for a nice car, why the hell woudln't I wan to go out and get a $500-600 car payment.. if I"m going to be in teh plan for 5 years... and HOW MUCH I pay creditors is going to be dictated by how much is "left over".. well then hell.. why not have LESS left over for the creditors by just buyhing myself better stuff?!?!?

As long as you keep your TOTAL car payments under $992, then you should be fine. The trustee can object to any individual car payment that is over the IRS standard of $496. That car would then be returned to the bank and you would need to find alternate transportation, which can be difficult after you've already filed. Now is not the time to be greedy. Since your 2 car payments are only $8 over this amount AND you've had the loans for a while, then you will be fine. If you want to trade in one of your cars towards a new car while still keeping your total payments under $992, then you are welcome to do so.

i can't imagien the BK courts would allow this, but so much of what I have seen in the BK world is a$$ backwards... i mean we have two relatively nice japanese vehicles. both are financed..and we owe about 20-25k on each. payment on one is 450, payment on other is 550. for all I know I might be able to upgrade one of them.. not that I need a new vehicle.. but if I am going to be stuck in a 13 plan for 5 years...and they are goig to let me deduct my actual car expenses... why not get a better car. is there a cap on how much your car payment can be?

See above

what's to stop someone from getting a 911 and a 7 series right before they go itno 13... they have $2000 / month in car payments.. oppps.. ig ues not much is left over for creditors... and you get to keep hot rods during a 13? i can't imagine that is how it works???

No. The trustee would make the debtor surrender those cars back to the bank, and then the debtor would have to find alternative transportation, which is not easy in a ch.13 and requires trustee approval throughout the whole process.

as a final comment.. it seems odd I am able to stop paying creditors.. amass cash... and then keep it in the BK.. if the whole idea of the BK is to get money back to the creditors.. but then they let me keep over $20k of cash...
does that exemption only apply to cash or is it all propoerty combined? like my hosuehold furnishings, jewelry, etc?

It's pretty much only CA that has such a large cash exemption. That is what is called a "wildcard" and applies to ANY property that doesn't fall under another exemption, be it furniture, electronics, auto equity, cash, anything....It is in addition to all the other personal property exemptions. Be thankful you're not somewhere like FL where you can only keep $1000 worth of property.[/quote]

am I better off to be in decent cars with 3-4 years left to pay on them, or get into a new one? i think i remember reading if the car was bought less thna 910 days before filing, you have to pay the while thing off w/in the plan.. so i guess if yo buy cars that just cost too muhc, you can't afford them and you can't afford your plan... but that would be for the moron who buys crazy $$ cars. what's to stop me from buhing slightly newer/better cars so that my overall monthly payment is only up a couple hundred bucks... wouldn't that just mean I pay $200 LeSS to the unsecured creditors?

Again, you need to keep your total payments to below $992 or the trustee will force you to surrender them.