FL Mobile Home Exemption *Additonal $4,000* If Land Not Owned

[platter]

I was considering using a FL Document Service (for the FL Middle Court) for my *individual* filing of Chapter 7 and was pretty dead set on doing it.

Now I'm rethinking the Service because I'm seeing what different atty(s) in consultations are saying and possibly going to have to hire the last atty I speak about in this post, if the Document Service does this differently. I'm going to call Monday when Document offices are open but wanted to see if anyone knows anything here about the depth of research/knowledge of statutes for the required forms or just a generic form-filling. (One Center is a member of BBB for past fifteen years. Probably knows more than some attorneys, IMO. One atty said they're firm has been doing BK for about 4 years, another said about 7 months. Many are offering it as an additional service now because of the economy.)

I know they're going to enter statutes that are required, of course. To what extent do they bother doing this that would be in my favor, like would they take extra time to find another statute that might apply, etc.? Or, do they just write the one they find first and don't extend themselves any further? Like generic form-filling.

Here's my situation: I have an older Park Model Mobile Home (in almost exc. cond.) but is worth only $2,700 per the tax appraiser.


Okay, couple of atty(s) have told me this while mentioning the Homestead Exemption:

There's a $4,000 allowance regardless of the worth of the mobile home. Only allowing $4,000 and since mine is $2,700...
* Out of $6,000 allowance, ($4,000, $1,000 vehicle, $1,000 personal property) I have to include the $2,700 within the $6,000.
* Said I'm only allowed 1 vehicle that's in my name and exempt only $1,000 for that and have to pay the remaining value regardless of Good, Fair or Poor or whatever. I understand that.
* Will have to pay the equity in the other two vehicles since they're in both our names.
Didn't say whether it mattered if it's *and* *or* between our names. I understand ours are with the *or* so I have to buy back equity. These are older and it won't be much I'd have to pay back so no real issue here.
* $1,000 for our personal items, computers, tv, sheds outside home, and all can't exceed $6,000.
Never said anything about Federal Personal allowances that are given regardless.
Basically telling me I only have $2,000 to deal with for one vehicle and personal property!
One said that he wasn't going to into statutes in the consultation because many just go to a paralegal afterward.


Other two atty(s) said:

* Homestead Exemption is $4,000 and my $2,700 is just that regardless if it was more or less. (Basically same as others above said.)
* Said I only have only $2,000 to play with on with personal expenses and vehicle, $1,000 for personal and $1,000 for vehicle in my name and pay rest of equity on that.
* Would have to buy back remainder of equity in other two vehicles that are in both our names as *or*.
Said I have only $2,000 to work with.



Would the Center know about this Wildcard amt routine when one *doesn't* own the land under a mobile home entitling them to use that $4,000 as personal property so therefore I'd be at $6,000 to include ALL personal property within that $6,000 amt. (A couple have factored amts differently for some reason.)


If lawyers are telling me different, it's now making me wonder if the Center knows.


(Wildcard; Florida Middle Court) It's pertaining to those who do not claim or benefit from a homestead exemption ... entitled to additional $4,000 added to debtors Constitutional exemptions of $1,000 for personal property.

What had opened my eyes is that when one doesn't own land under a mobile home the value of my home is within that $2,700 and was told that there's $6,000 aside from that to include all else.

******* The last atty said that if we have the condition of all vehicles combined and we get that at $5,300 that I still have $600.00 to add more personal belongings (aside from the Fed allowable) and won't have to pay back the equity *in any of those vehicles*. It seems to me he's saying we can possibly fit it all within the $6,000.******** He said if I did go over the Mean, not to worry, and that the expenses will take care of it. No other atty has talked with me in such an explanatory way. ** He was also not aware of it changing Nov 1st is the only critical comment I have to say toward him at this point.**

???? Now why did the others say I only had $1,000 for personal and $1,000 for one vehicle and would have to pay back the equity in the vehicles? And this last one said that we have a total of $6,000 to include all I mentioned? Did they not realize that a debtor claiming exemption for a mobile home under 222.05 does not benefit from the Constitutional homestead exemption and that the debtor is eligible for the additional $4,000.00?

Below is a paper given me by the last atty. He gave me several printouts such as a list of statutes, a BK flow chart, etc. Spent more time with me than other atty(s) and had all the papers set up, etc. etc. and I think that's because after you hire him you won't see him again, it will be the paralegal. But, I must admit I was most impressed with him beyond the others. One of the others had a couple of figures scribbled on a piece of paper and when I was leaving and started to take it, he moved it across the table to himself and kept it. This last one was very generous with his info, spent about an hour and a half or so with me and charges $1,5000 total.



MOBILE HOME OWNER ELIGIBLE FOR "WILDCARD" PERSONAL PROPERTY EXEMPTION IN CHAPTER 7 BANKRUPTSY

People who do not claim or benefit from a homestead exemption are entitled to an additional personal property exemption in the amount of $4,000 in chapter 7 bankruptsy. The $4,000 property exemption can be added to the debtors Constitutional exemptions of $1,000 for all personal property. Bankruptcy debtors who intend to keep their primary residence in bankruptcy do not get the additional $4,000 exemption according to several bankruptcy court decisions. In a recent case, a court considered whether someone who lives in a mobile home situated on a rental lot lot used as a debtor's primary residence are exempt in bankruptcy pursuant to Florida Statute 222.05.

A bankruptcy court held that a Chapter 7 debtor who claims an exemption for a mobile home, when the same debtor does not own the underlying land, may also claim an additional $4,000 personal property exemption provided by Florida Statute 222.25(4). The court distinquished the mobile home exemption under 222.05 from the Constitutional homestead exemption even though in either case the exemptions apply to owner occupied dwelling.

The court said that the Constitutional homestead exemption is applicable only where the debtor owns the land and the improvements on the land; Florida Statute 222.05 addresses specifically those situations where the debtor owns the improvement (the mobile home) but does not own the underlying land.

Because a debtor claiming exemption for a mobile home under 222.05 does not benefit from the Constitutional homestead exemption that debtor is eligible for the additional $4,000 personal property exemption under 222.25(4). In re: Richard Lisowski, 07-bk-8495-PMG.

[justbroke]

First, a phone consultation is never the end-all-be-all in attorney consultations. They really don't have all your details and generally will just tell you what is generally acceptable. I would probably bet $5 that most of them don't even listen to "all" the detail you provide, because that would just consume too much time for a free consultation.

The truth is, that if you say mobile home to a Florida bankruptcy attorney, almost all will automatically assume that it's in a fixed location with a land lease or the land is owned or mortgaged. If you filed for a homestead tax credit, then the property is homesteaded and you are receiving the benefit of the homestead exemption. Even if you didn't have equity in the property (lots of caselaw on that). Additionally, not all bankruptcy attorneys deal with that type of property and so that group of attorneys will declare that it is a "motor vehicle" and that it is limited to the $1,000 motor vehicle exemption in F.S. 222.25 as well as the $1,000 wildcard exemption from the Florida Constitution (Article X Sec. 4), and the unused homestead exemption provided for in F.S. 222.25(4).

Here are the facts!

• You have $1,000 for one vehicle
• You have $1,000 as a wildcard that can be applied to any property (this includes your clothes, furniture, appliances, everything!)
• You would get a $4,000 "unused" homestead exemption, if you do not benefit from the homestead exemption. This would mean that your "mobile home" is not fixed, on leased, mortgaged, or owned land... or you receive the Florida Homestead Exemption for. (If you're paying property tax on it, it's probably a homestead eligible "mobile home" which would mean it's probably at a fixed location.)

So, it's not just $6,000 in total, unless you're applying it all to a car (mobile home). Also, that decision is not binding on any other Judge in Florida or even in the same District.

[platter]

All of these were office consultations.

The first was about an hour but at that time I didn't know squat and barely had my income exact but the gal was very explanatory regarding the Means Test and income. I was impressed with the paralegal.
The second atty was almost an hour and a half but didn't learn anything but the very, very basic.
Third atty about 25 minutes saying we were running over the 15 minutes.
Fourth atty about 30 minutes.
Fifth about 45 minutes, doubt it was an hour, maybe.
Sixth, about 1-1/2 or 2 hours. (The only one that elaborated on the Homestead Exemption and the $4,000 additional.)

All of those clowns knew it was payed for and that I was *paying lot rent.*

Only the sixth one is the one that said that I can use $6,000 for all the vehicles *exluding* the mobile home because it came under the additional $4,000, aside from this $6,000 allowance.

?I'm also wondering if the Legal Document Service would recognize all this when filling out forms. If not, then I need to hire this atty.

?Could this be so? I'm sure I heard him say that if we take the *Fair* value of Private Party sale and show a quote from a dealer, for example, on how much it would cost to repair the body work (scratches) on one vehicle; and show a quote for A/C repair that's needed on another that we could even lower that value that was given in the NADA or whichever he uses that is the better choice.

?When do vehicle values go down - at the very start of the new year?
Atty #5 told me to wait until after the 1st of January so that probably a large amt would depreciate again. He also wanted to me to absolutely wait until the entire 90 days had passed since the last time I used my credit card and I really think he just wanted to make his job easier even though I told him there'd been no luxuries charged and I'd be past the 90 days. Atty #6 wasn't worried about it

(If you're paying property tax on it, it's probably a homestead eligible "mobile home" which would mean it's probably at a fixed location.)

It's considered a Park Model, those that are smaller. This is a 12X37 and I have to renew the *tag* on it every year. It's like a mobile home but the mobile homes have stickers whereas this one receives a tag with annual renewal sticker. It's in a fixed location but I don't own the land, I pay lot rent to the community (park), so I don't understand the term *fixed location* in this sense.

So, it's not just $6,000 in total, unless you're applying it all to a car (mobile home). Also, that decision is not binding on any other Judge in Florida or even in the same District.

He said I can apply $6,000 to all the vehicles if I so wish. It was leaving me with about $530.00 to account for whatever, if we could estimate the vehicles' values cheaper as he was estimating.



.

[justbroke]

All of these were office consultations.

Unfortunately, working with the paralegal or, in some of the cases the attorney, is still preliminary. Sounds like the 6th one figure out the "lot rent". It's okay to ask them an attorney what his "resume" is like and if they have dealt with your specific issues. "Lot rent" would have told me that you didn't own the land, but you also have seemed to indicate that you're paying property taxes??? (Because you mentioned a county office of the property appraiser.)

?I'm also wondering if the Legal Document Service would recognize all this when filling out forms. If not, then I need to hire this atty.

LDS is not allowed to give ANY legal help with this. All they are legally allowed to do is fill out the forms exactly how you filled them out. They technically can't even suggest anything or even provide you with a "questionnaire". Please know that most Trustees in Florida will ask you at the 341 Meeting if you used a document prep service. They are going after the services that performed "legal" work and not "document prep"l.

?Could this be so? I'm sure I heard him say that if we take the *Fair* value of Private Party sale and show a quote from a dealer, for example, on how much it would cost to repair the body work (scratches) on one vehicle; and show a quote for A/C repair that's needed on another that we could even lower that value that was given in the NADA or whichever he uses that is the better choice.

Valuation is always a touchy subject. Generally speaking, many Florida Trustees uses the "good" condition for a dealer price. They just like to argue over the price because people are actually trying to hide equity. The quotes are an excellent idea.

?When do vehicle values go down - at the very start of the new year?

Actually, the NADA guide is usually published quarterly!

Atty #5 told me to wait until after the 1st of January so that probably a large amt would depreciate again.

There is no "true" depreciation used to calculate automobile pricing. It's based on the guides, so I don't like the word "depreciation". I like "valuation". Some cars actually appreciate.

He also wanted to me to absolutely wait until the entire 90 days had passed since the last time I used my credit card and I really think he just wanted to make his job easier even though I told him there'd been no luxuries charged and I'd be past the 90 days. Atty #6 wasn't worried about it

Well, it is always best to wait... but many times even non-luxury items may "appear" to the creditor as a luxury. Especially if you KNEW you were going to file and were still using the cards. However, most creditors won't even approach this topic unless you're at $4,000 or more, although some could get evil at as little as $2K when it's a slam dunk.

He said I can apply $6,000 to all the vehicles if I so wish. It was leaving me with about $530.00 to account for whatever, if we could estimate the vehicles' values cheaper as he was estimating.

Yes, you could use $6K on just the vehicles, but remember, you have to exhaust the $1K with the vehicle exemption, then the $4K unused homestead exemption, and then what's left of the last $1K "constitutional" exemption. Remember, you probably have furniture, clothes, music, TV(s), stereo, cellular phone. In Florida, these Trustees are TOUGH because there are just not enough exemptions to cover everything and they know this. Don't cut so close to the bone that the Trustee orders an appraisal of ALL YOUR belongings (including the contents of your closet(s)).

[LadyInTheRed]

I'm also wondering if the Legal Document Service would recognize all this when filling out forms. If not, then I need to hire this atty.

[

The Legal Document Service will not be able to tell you how to apply exemptions to your property, at least not without breaking the law. All they can do is take the information you give them and put it on the forms. They shouldn't be making any decisions about anything and should not be giving you advice on the law. You will be filing pro se and it will be up to you to research the law and decide what the correct answers are. If you aren't up to doing that, you should hire the attorney you are most comfortable with.

ETA: Started posting before JB posted.

[platter]

My mistake for not being clear about the tax appraiser. That was a request for the assessment of the value of home only for the atty #1 that had told me to get that. No land tax.

Atty #6 handwrote this:

EXEMPTIONS (written at top of page).

Vehicle 1 = $3,400.
" " 2 = $1,300.
" " 3 = $500
" " 4 = $100 (homemade trailer)
Total: $5,300

(To the left, of the above, he handwritten $6,000.)

(Off to the right side, of the above, he'd handwritten):
FL Const. Personal $1,000.
FL Statute 225.25C1, $1,000. (That's what it looks like, C1, not clear.)
FL Statute 222.25C4, $4,000.

Below:
FL Stat 222.05 for Mobile Home
All other personal property jointly owned as married couple: 11 USC 522(b)(3)(B)

I asked him more than once if the mobile home isn't included and that I can claim alll those vehicles just like that and I can almost sware he said YES. That's why I was floored. Of course we both agreed that depending on what the actual value is going to be, I might have to pay back some but he flat wrote it out just like how I showed you here on this post.

So, what is he actually doing? Going to subtract $1,000 for personal from that, and another $1,000 from that for the vehicle to exhaust those two amounts? He told me that the $4,000 didn't factor into this. I sware he said that because I was so flabbergasted in comparison to the responses I received from the other atty(s).

What you're saying about *exhaust*, he really didn't say anything about *exhaust*, it was like he was saying that we were using that in the estimates, not like we were exhausting them. The way he made it sound was that the $4,000 is extra for me to use totalling $6,000 to use however I want such as in his list I posted above.
Heck, now I don't know what to make of this, he told me that it looks like I *won't have to pay them anything*!! justbroke, what you're saying is now more along the lines of the previous atty(s).


LadyInRed, yes, I understand that the Document Center can't give advise and they've informed me of that. But I've never asked them about what they do in the sense of these statutes. I would want to make sure they understood about that *additional $4,000 exemption* which I thought I was beginning to understand and now with the atty not using the word *exhaust* and justbroke has brought it up again similar to the way other atty(s) have (and by the way that I was beginning to understand this process) until this Atty #6 has somehow thrown me for a loop.

I was going to use a Document Center. Then I was considering this atty. Now, if he's not telling me correctly and if it's going back to the fact that I have $1,000 for personal and $1,000 for the vehicle at my disposal, then I will have to pay the equity in those vehicles regardless of how low we get the value ... so now we're basically back at square 1 with what the other atty(s) I saw before had told me, right? ***So, I might as well use the document service if it's going to be the same as Atty #6.

Why is this one presented this differently to me? He even said that the others might not have realized about the additional $4,000 and that's why they were deducting that and leaving me only with the $2,000 to play with (aside from Federal allowables.)

So, if that's the way it is and I'm down to $2,000, then maybe I should use the Document Center.
Then I think, well, if the atty knows how to really work these amounts on personal items, etc. then maybe I should hire him. I sware he said we'd list a lesser value than the book value and show the repair quote to backup our putting a lesser value than the book said on Good or Fair.
?Would a Document Center submit a lesser value than the book value for a vehicle if I have a repair quote on needed repairs?
Another atty told me to get those quotes as well but he seemed to be saying that in regards to proving the value but not with listing the value as less than the Fair.
I think I still have a few Advil tablets left for tension headache! (lol)

[LadyInTheRed]

LadyInRed, yes, I understand that the Document Center can't give advise and they've informed me of that. But I've never asked them about what they do in the sense of these statutes. I would want to make sure they understood about that *additional $4,000 exemption*.

I don't think you understand all the things that are considered giving legal advice. I don't want you to have unrealistic expectations of what they can do for you. If they comply with the law, the Document Center will put in the forms exactly what you tell them. Nothing more, nothing less. What they understand about the $4,000 is irrelevant. If they tell you what to do or that what you want to do is incorrect, they are giving you legal advice. They type the petition according to your instructions and take it to the court and pay the filing fee with your check. They can't even include the filing fee in their fee and then pay the court with their own check. That's how tight the restrictions are on what they can do.

***So, I might as well use the document service if it's going to be the same as Atty #6.

Not really. An attorney can and will do a lot more than a document service.

?Would a Document Center submit a lesser value than the book value for a vehicle if I have a repair quote on needed repairs?

The Document Center will enter whatever value you tell them to.

Think of the document center as no more than a typing service. That's really all they are allowed to be.

Here's a good summary of what a document preparer can and cannot do: http://www.wsba.org/lawyers/groups/p...npreparers.pdf

[LadyInTheRed]

So, what is he actually doing?

He's relying on the case mentioned in the paper he gave you to use both the homestead exemption and the $4,000 wildcard. You can read the case at: http://pacer.flmb.uscourts.gov/pdf-new/40520796.pdf , but the summary you posted is probably sufficient. It may make more sense if you read the statutes it refers to which your attorney listed on the page he titled "exemptions" (those aren't Cs. They are open parens.)

You can read the statutes on exemptions at: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...EChapter%20222

I didn't look up the $1,000 constitution exemption which is in addition to the statutory exemptions.

As JB pointed out, that ruling is not binding on other judges, so relying on it is a gamble. Ask the attorney if he has been successful getting both the homestead and $4,000 wildcard?

It does sound like this attorney is willing to work for you rather than take the path of least resistance. That and the fact that he has been generous with his time and is willing at a free consultation to tell you the law and case on which he is basing his opinion on are good signs.

[tobee43]

Unfortunately, working with the paralegal or, in some of the cases the attorney, is still preliminary. Sounds like the 6th one figure out the "lot rent". It's okay to ask them an attorney what his "resume" is like and if they have dealt with your specific issues. "Lot rent" would have told me that you didn't own the land, but you also have seemed to indicate that you're paying property taxes??? (Because you mentioned a county office of the property appraiser.)

LDS is not allowed to give ANY legal help with this. All they are legally allowed to do is fill out the forms exactly how you filled them out. They technically can't even suggest anything or even provide you with a "questionnaire". Please know that most Trustees in Florida will ask you at the 341 Meeting if you used a document prep service. They are going after the services that performed "legal" work and not "document prep"l.

Valuation is always a touchy subject. Generally speaking, many Florida Trustees uses the "good" condition for a dealer price. They just like to argue over the price because people are actually trying to hide equity. The quotes are an excellent idea.

Actually, the NADA guide is usually published quarterly!

There is no "true" depreciation used to calculate automobile pricing. It's based on the guides, so I don't like the word "depreciation". I like "valuation". Some cars actually appreciate.

Well, it is always best to wait... but many times even non-luxury items may "appear" to the creditor as a luxury. Especially if you KNEW you were going to file and were still using the cards. However, most creditors won't even approach this topic unless you're at $4,000 or more, although some could get evil at as little as $2K when it's a slam dunk.

Yes, you could use $6K on just the vehicles, but remember, you have to exhaust the $1K with the vehicle exemption, then the $4K unused homestead exemption, and then what's left of the last $1K "constitutional" exemption. Remember, you probably have furniture, clothes, music, TV(s), stereo, cellular phone. In Florida, these Trustees are TOUGH because there are just not enough exemptions to cover everything and they know this. Don't cut so close to the bone that the Trustee orders an appraisal of ALL YOUR belongings (including the contents of your closet(s)).

platter...jb has excellent insight into this situation.

i so understand that florida is mind boggling with it's changing NOT only from district to district, but county to county within just one district. many don't get that, it's a concept that seems crazy and is!!

it's going to be up to you whether to use the legal doc service or an atty.

personally, in this general area, because the means tests changing from county to county ....AND, it seems as though the "letter" of the law is sometimes overlooked or applied in a rather different interruption, i would get an atty. i have known many times in that particular district what applied to one did not to another...perhaps it's because some trustees look more carefully case by case ....(unless jb will go with you! LOL!!)

we did not use an atty for any other reason that firms knowledge of this more complex court district and hopefully the firms relationships with the trustees and a good understanding of the psychology of the hearings themselves with respect to these complexities.

in many areas life is easier!! more cut and dry.

best of luck to you platter...which ever way you decide to do this. i know and understand it's so much stress. sometimes you need to step away for a day or two and then revisit the situation...give yourself a break and clear you mind a bit.

[justbroke]

No, I think you're good. If you're in the Middle District of Florida, the other Judges may read "PMG's" opinion (who is the Chief Judge and I personally like a lot of his work). I was only worried about how many other cars you had and whether you had enough to exempt everything. It reads to me as though Attorney #6 was pretty much on target.

At this point, I think you should REALLY be using an attorney and attorney #6 reads as though s/he understands the intricacies of F.S. 222.05 which is not common. I only say use an attorney, because you may still get a fight from the Trustee and I'd hate to see you in a battle by yourself. As I wrote earlier, not all attorneys have experience with all situations and the mobile home, that you are using as your residence, appears to have a special non-constitutional (Florida constitution) exemption.

[tobee43]

No, I think you're good. If you're in the Middle District of Florida, the other Judges may read "PMG's" opinion (who is the Chief Judge and I personally like a lot of his work). I was only worried about how many other cars you had and whether you had enough to exempt everything. It reads to me as though Attorney #6 was pretty much on target.

At this point, I think you should REALLY be using an attorney and attorney #6 reads as though s/he understands the intricacies of F.S. 222.05 which is not common. I only say use an attorney, because you may still get a fight from the Trustee and I'd hate to see you in a battle by yourself. As I wrote earlier, not all attorneys have experience with all situations and the mobile home, that you are using as your residence, appears to have a special non-constitutional (Florida constitution) exemption.

i so agree...no sense with taking any changes on this situation, a legal doc center can't help you fight, just in case in comes down to that...frankly...i was a bit scared to check out some of the more recent decisions in this area...i personally didn't want to stress myself even further.

jb...it's good to know you have been on top of some of the decision rendered with respect to the chief judge in that area...and YOU LIKE THEM!!

[justbroke]

jb...it's good to know you have been on top of some of the decision rendered with respect to the chief judge in that area...and YOU LIKE THEM!!

I also like the Judge out of Jacksonville (same District, different division). He's actually very debtor-friendly! His name sounds like something malodorous, but he's totally cool!

[tobee43]

I also like the Judge out of Jacksonville (same District, different division). He's actually very debtor-friendly! His name sounds like something malodorous, but he's totally cool!

jb..you mean this state has two good judges?? no way!!!

actually that's great news!!

[platter]

Thanks for the responses with the advise, info and even the links that were given in addition!


I have $1,4000.00 stashed for an atty expense and his fee is $1,500. Not bad compared to the one that wanted $1,900.00 and didn't know if I should claim the sheds outside or not (neither did another atty but it came down to probably claiming them at, garage sale value, to be on the safe side).

During the consult I began wondering why he was taking so much time. At one point I just stopped and asked, "This consultation is free, right?" (lol)

The intake form was the longest I'd seen, answering many questions ahead of time, so it's saving time for him in the long run if he's hired. It'll be a paralegal after hiring him, no doubt. But I must say that he stood out significantly compared to the others. And I mean significantly to the ultimate Nth degree. The others just sat there staring in my face and covered only the bare basics. This one got on his computer, got right on it to check the vehicle values, etc. I mean he was covering so much territory compared to the others. He wasn't just sitting there staring at me - he was actively engaged in my situation as if I had already hired him. He even gave me a print out of a blog by an atty in Orlando, I think, that he said he often views. Unfortunately, I had the copy but I can't find it but will ask again later for that. I think it would be an interesting read.

Gathering the necessary documents and handing them over to him and feeling more confident would alleviate stress. I can't stand the strain, the pressure on my forehead that I get from straining my mind over all this and learning all this if I did it myself. (I think its doable if I had someone sitting with me that knows something about this.) I have very limited space to deal with all the papers and have already seen some get mixed up. Just the lack of space is enough to cause stress trying to keep everything organized. I have to satisfy the requirements of the Job Center in requesting for assistance for more training through a school and coupled with BK, it's too much of a strain and time-consuming to do this myself. (They also gave me a boatload of papers to assist with updating a resume and I'm already inundated with papers right now!)

I think the Document Service is really cut and dry as many of you have said and what I had figured. The atty will do more. I did on one occasion ask what they would do if I couldn't find the bill of sale for one older vehicle that had mechanical problems. They said we'd put "unknown." The same thing that another atty said. Out of couriosity, I'm going to call back or stop by one agency and ask if they know about this $4,000 Wildcard. Actually, one lady from the service was more real in speaking with me than most of the atty(s).

I told a friend that I really don't want to do it myself. If I hired a Document Center and pay filing and their fee, $475 or others $500 total, and it gets me questioned by a trustee, then it's better to pay an atty and be more self-assured. When looking at thousands of dollars of debt to hopefully be off my shoulder, why risk it by trying to save $1,000?

? On the other hand, if I look at it like this atty #6 is doing, then I should be able to come up with those same figures and statutes and give them to a Document Service.

I think I'll attend the 341 hearings this week, possibly tomorrow, to hear it for myself before I make a final decision on hiring the atty. And, since his fee is $1,500, I'm thinking of offerring $1,300 paid in full at time of hiring. Do you think it hurts to ask even though he gave a flow chart on the timing of the process and fees if paid in payments? I never said anything about payments and I'd like to see if maybe he'd accept the $1,300.00.

I think he's getting this so that I don't have to pay back anything at all (or very close). That's a big difference that what the others were telling me. All told me that I will have to pay back equity on mine and about half of what the vehicles are worth that are in both our names.

I'm still astounded that the others weren't looking at it like atty #6. They kept telling me flat out that it's $1,000 for personal, $1,000 for property and that would end up leaving me paying back over $2,000 for my truck and they pretty much told me that! ($4,000 for mobile home and nothing left to use after $2,700 out of that, regardless if worth $2,700 or $4,000 or more.)

? So it seems that some of these atty(s) I'd previously mentioned think that if you're mobile home is worth more than $4,000, then the owner has to pay the equity of the value of it, right? (If it's paid for, as an example.)

One atty said something that normally it's like $1 (one dollar) per square foot on calculating personal items in the home. Sound right? I think Atty #6 said that with the Federal Exemption which is given, that I'll be real good and not have to add a whole lot more or something like that. There's not a lot you can stash into a 12X37! (lol)

? I know of someone that has worked assisting Veteran's in filling out their forms and I've heard those that are quite lengthy. I can detect that the person is quite detailed and intelligent and probably would have the expertise to assist me with pro se, I think. I thought of approaching them and asking if they wanted to help me and I'd pay them for assistance. (If they thought they could or would even be interested.)

... What's the hardest part of Chapter 7, looking up the Statutes?
... Even with a Document Service, I have to look up the Statutes myself, right? I think that was said before that I do. Well, forget doing that by myself. (lol)

Thanks for reading and hopefully if someone else didn't know about the $4,000 Wildcard, they now do.

[AngelinaCat]

I also like the Judge out of Jacksonville (same District, different division). He's actually very debtor-friendly! His name sounds like something malodorous, but he's totally cool!

If I am understanding this message correctly, this judge was our judge, and was very patient with our many mistakes.