law student looking for some advice

[Hairy]

Hi all,

A bit of a meta-bankruptcy question, if I may.

I'm a second-year law student. In part because of the economy, I've had an impossible time finding any sort of summer work, much less interviews for an after-graduation job, in what would have been my specialty, patent prosecution. (I have a tech undergrad, and I already have some experience as a tech spec. I'm actually pretty good at kicking USPTO examiner @$$.)

So, I'm thinking about going into bankruptcy law instead. In looking at the stock market, job numbers, foreclosures, and all the rest, I don't see any recovery. Things are getting worse, and right now it looks like we're on the precipice again.

I've taken the basic Bankruptcy class, and will be taking at least two more classes this year. (Purely by luck, my school has three well-regarded bankruptcy scholars on its faculty, plus an adjunct professor who teaches a practical-skills class in between billing, literally, 3000 hours.)

One last fact to add to the pattern: I do have some contacts who have expressed interest in sending me patent work once I'm back in the working world. They're hurting due to the economy, so it's anyone's guess whether there'd be much to do. But it's a start on my own "book".

Would any bankruptcy attorneys be so kind as to provide advice on how to market myself to bankruptcy-law firms, or even what my chances would be for going solo? I've heard that for those of us with tech backgrounds who have already focused on IP during law school, non-IP firms tend to wonder why we're looking for something else -- and tend not to hire us as a result.

Does anyone think it would be possible to run a general-practice solo firm, focusing on two areas -- bankruptcy and IP (patent and trademark work)? Or would that hurt my credibility for clients on both sides?

Thanks,

Hairy

[HHM]

Well, those two areas of law are not closely related, so it would really divide your focus and confuse clients on both sides.

As far as getting hired by BK firms. It's "possible", but positions open up rarely and competition is fierce. I spoke to one firm who recently put out an ad for a BK attorney, they had over 80 resumes. Many of the ads are for national firms looking for contract attorneys to handle case in a particular location (i.e. Legal Helpers, etc). If you really want to learn about BK, you may need to apply for bankruptcy Paralegal positions, that will get your foot in the door and you can start learning the mechanics of BK. I know many firms are looking for part time help (case loads are higher than average, but for many firms, do not justify hiring a full time person).

As for going solo, you need to change your focus from learning the area of law (that will come with time), to learning how to run a business. Start with E-Myth by Michael Gerber. Then read Book Yourself Solid by Michael Port and The Brand Called You by Peter Montoya. Next on the list should be Getting Things Done by David Allen. Most BK attorneys start off as solo's (unfortunately, that is why the quality of legal representation is generally poor in the BK industry. Attorneys that can't cut it in mainstream law, move to BK because they perceive it to be easy). Also, as you read these books, you will learn why you cannot (should not) divide your expertise; it is a recipe for business disaster.

[despritfreya]

I assume from your post that you are not attending a second or lower tier school. If that is the case and your bk professors are well regarded, you need to latch onto them. They will have the contacts you need to get your foot in the door. If your GPA is in the top 5% and with the patent (commercial) background, you should be looking to intern between now and graduation at a relatively large firm in your area, one that handles commercial bk.

Over the next few years the commercial aspect of bk's is going to soar. The recent auto industry issues are just the tip of the iceberg. We have not yet seen the commercial real estate fallout that is inevitable and, for an up and coming attny, that is were the focus should be. Be warned, however, working for a big firm as an associate means no weekends, no vacation, and no life. You will however, have a big paycheck.

[Maine]

Since I was just searching for a BK lawyer I can tell you that one way to get customers as a solo practice would be to have a good website. The big firms have them, the personal injury guys have them, the TV commercial firms have super polished websites....but the little guys have almost nothing out there.

I didn't want to be a case number, I wanted to be "Hi Mrs. Maine, I got your call this morning, can you drop in tomorrow afternoon sometime to look at the numbers with me?"

I found my lawyer, but only because of a friend...I almost offered to make him a website in exchange for his fees. (Wonder if he would have taken that??!?!? )

[Hairy]

Thank you, all; much appreciated.

Maine, I've already got a couple of web domains picked out, and site design is no problem for me; I've done it before.

HHM, I've already started reading the "how to network" and "how to start your own firm" books in my school's library; I'll take a look for those titles as well. I agree that there's not a lot of fit between bankruptcy and patents but I truly hate to give up on IP work completely. In the last month, on my own (no firm internship or anything), I've talked to one person about a patent infringement problem and given "general non-legal information" to a few people on trademark issues. I'm damn good at it, and I really hate that this economy is preventing me from finding work in it. Unfortunately, I've also been told by every patent practitioner that I meet that nobody will hand their patent drafting to a brand-new grad in a solo practice, and there's too little trademark work to devote a practice to that.

Going solo is most definitely a "Hobson's choice" for me, and in this economy, the logical field is bankruptcy. If you follow the stock traders' boards at all, you'll have read about the market signals that went off last week, indicating the likelihood of a further decline. Considering how tapped-out people are already, a market plunge is going to drive a lot more into bankruptcy.

I assume from your post that you are not attending a second or lower tier school. If that is the case and your bk professors are well regarded, you need to latch onto them. They will have the contacts you need to get your foot in the door. If your GPA is in the top 5% and with the patent (commercial) background, you should be looking to intern between now and graduation at a relatively large firm in your area, one that handles commercial bk.

Mid-T1, but I'm nowhere near the top 5%, and I've had no luck with getting internships -- although admittedly, until this summer, I still held out hope for an IP job and was applying exclusively to those. With the economy deteriorating and no job in sight, I've decided to shift my focus.

I don't know that I would have had any luck even if I'd been applying to bankruptcy firms last year, though. The "I got a summer job!" stats from my class are pretty bad; even among our top 10%, most aren't getting paid.

Over the next few years the commercial aspect of bk's is going to soar. The recent auto industry issues are just the tip of the iceberg. We have not yet seen the commercial real estate fallout that is inevitable and, for an up and coming attny, that is were the focus should be. Be warned, however, working for a big firm as an associate means no weekends, no vacation, and no life. You will however, have a big paycheck.

I agree completely, but nobody in biglaw is going to touch me; they only hire if they've had someone as a summer associate, and I didn't get one of those positions either year. At this point, I just want to survive, and to not have wasted three years of my life on a degree that I otherwise would never be able to use. My old career in software development is gone, thanks to offshoring and H1-B's. Pretty much the only options I see for myself at this point are either (a) going solo and handling bankruptcies, or (b) holding up a "will work for food" sign at an off-ramp.

[jeffinva]

Harry, I'd stick with patent law. Probably one of the few areas that really hasn't been nailed as bad. Don't know what area you live in but my wife used to work for a large patent only law firm in DC. They also have offices in other parts of the country too. I think Atlanta, Boston and Palo Alto. They were always bringing summer associates on board. Depending on what your technical specialty is also improves your chances (EE, CompE and CS are still the hot ones).

[Silver26]

When we hired our attorney he was working by himself, and by the time we filed he had 6 people working for him. He blew up as far as business goes. He is very visible on the internet and he always responds when we email him. I actually tested this with a few attorneys and hes the only one that actually replied to our emails.

[Hairy]

Harry, I'd stick with patent law. Probably one of the few areas that really hasn't been nailed as bad. ... Depending on what your technical specialty is also improves your chances (EE, CompE and CS are still the hot ones).

Believe me, that's what I thought too. I'm CS, BA/MA in it, appropriate chem AND physics coursework to qualify, and experience as a tech spec. The Loyola patent law job fair was last month, and I got zero interviews. None of my techie classmates are getting anything in IP either (not even the bio Ph.D.).

I'd be more than happy to go anywhere -- no house, no family ties. No offers, no interviews.

Every pros firm interviewing at Loyola only wanted CS degrees from an engineering school (there were two patent litigation firms that would accept a liberal-arts CS degree). I applied anyway, and got 27 "declined"'s.

I thought about going overseas, but every decent country out there requires post-graduation experience practicing law in order to work legally. (Japan, Germany, and Taiwan, three years; HK, two years). Being solo would count, but sitting around collecting rejection letters wouldn't.

I'm hoping that Silver26's comment is indicative of the level of work at bankruptcy firms -- unfortunate for people in general, but maybe at least I'd be able to practice law.

[BKOnce]

Try this website... Their goal is to hiring around 1,000+ (entry level, no experience) for next year hire! (if you have citizenship & a BS degree in engineering, science or biotech? ) . submit application online.

https://www.uspto.gov

[Hairy]

Already applied to the USPTO, thanks. That was one of the 27 dings I got out of Loyola.

[BKOnce]

Already applied to the USPTO, thanks. That was one of the 27 dings I got out of Loyola.

You'd applied at a wrong time. That was the time (last couple years back) when USPTO was on hiring freeze and rejected almost everyone. Now, Congress just granted USPTO agency more than $100 million operation/hiring budget (for fiscal year 2010-2011) for push up the production to da max (to get the economy going for Obama wish), so it would be much easier for you to get in this time, just get into PTO, get your experience first in couple years and then get out to the private firms later.

Trust me, they are trying to get out 200,000+ cases still backlogged in their system now so they are hiring FAST!!. So please try again! Don't be discourage, try again, and Good luck!

[LadyInTheRed]

I have one thought. Start your own practice and do both BK and IP, but keep the marketing for each area separate. Write two separate bios. Have two websites instead of one that mentions both practice areas. If you put your practice area on your business card, have two sets of business cards. You could even have a separate phone number for each practice. This way BK can be your bread and butter while you slowly build an IP practice. Yes, anyone who digs a little will find out you are working in both areas. But, at least it won't be obvious as soon as a potential client looks at your website.

[SMinGA]

I agree with LadyInTheRed. If I were atty shopping I would wonder about an atty in 2 diverse areas. My atty does real estate law & Bk. Was uncertain about even that at first, but he had much experience behind him. Might not want to make your dual fields so obvious since for now, you don't have the experience & reputation to carry you.

On the bright side - many people do not research background/experience when hiring a bk atty. So if you take good care of those customers, you'll build some.

[HHM]

I have one thought. Start your own practice and do both BK and IP, but keep the marketing for each area separate. Write two separate bios. Have two websites instead of one that mentions both practice areas. If you put your practice area on your business card, have two sets of business cards. You could even have a separate phone number for each practice. This way BK can be your bread and butter while you slowly build an IP practice. Yes, anyone who digs a little will find out you are working in both areas. But, at least it won't be obvious as soon as a potential client looks at your website.

[NoTomatoCan]

I have to agree with HHM. Go with the one you enjoy and the dollars will follow.

When I started law school I was the only one in class with a laptop (running Windows 3.11) and the idea of technology/computer specific law was pretty foreign so the areas everyone suggested focusing on was still IP and Copyright law. I loved the technology area, so I focused more on that than the law aspect of my school. Now with all the eDiscovery, SB-OX, data retention, compliance, and other techie related legal areas I actually get to use my law degree on a regular basis. I love what I do, even if I am not getting the full $450 worth of value out of my annual bar dues!

Ultimately you need to enjoy what you do. It is a long time from graduation until retirement.