There's no shame in BK

[ohiogal]

It does clear up the basement, but dear god, why not file and THEN sell this stuff and raise some cash for living expenses? unless it's worth lots of money most likely it is protected under BK statures. God knows it's hard enough to get credit these days with a GOOD history, let alone with a BK on you record.

Because when I sold the stuff, I was trying to hang on long enough so I could find more work and not have to file BK. And actually, I DID sell more stuff after I filed, because I sold my house and the buyer made an offer on everything in my garage (which I didn't need because I was moving to an apartment). So, I ended up with more money to live on, that the trustee didn't want. So, it all worked out.

[currerbell]

Banks/lending institutions are sophisticated actors. They are in the *business* of making money off of lending money - they are professionals and this is what they do. Borrowers are not sophisticated actors or financial professionals; we are consumers. This uneven bargaining status is why we have Consumer Protection laws.

Banks do not come to us looking to our expertise and hoping we will borrow their money. Consumers go to banks looking to their expertise and hoping they will lend us money. While we know that banks are for-profit, we assume that because they are regulated that they will at least be honest. And we rely on their expertise when they tell us that they have reviewed our financials and have determined that they can lend us X amount.

Certainly there are some individual consumers who could have made better financial decisions. But it is absurd to suggest that any lender who attempted to make money off of NINA-type lending is not predatory.

And as to removing the exemption for student loans, I would suggest that you consider the difference between government-backed student loans (exempt and there is no pending legislation to change this) and private student loans (exempt and there are bills in both the Senate and House to change this). Private student loans have NONE of the consumer protections that the gov't loans have. NONE.

Now, back to the actual topic - thank you freefall for your thoughts and insight. It is certainly a breath of fresh air to hear a different take on debt and shame.

[nc73]

You all are making this complicated. If the law says I can file bankruptcy. I will file. Where is the shame in that? You are not breaking the law!

[currerbell]

good point nc73. BK laws are not criminal - they are statutory rights/privileges. Never thought about it that way...

[onwards]

You all are making this complicated. If the law says I can file bankruptcy. I will file. Where is the shame in that? You are not breaking the law!

That's correct. BK is a restructuring of finances, that's all.

However, to state that there is no shame in that is to turn a blind eye to the way MOST people react to the notion of filing BK. Most of us DO feel ashamed, because it's something we are raised to think is terrible. How can you deny that?

Or maybe I am getting hung up on the phrase "there is no shame"... maybe you mean to say "there should be no shame", at which point I will agree with you 100%.

[freefall]

Now, back to the actual topic - thank you freefall for your thoughts and insight. It is certainly a breath of fresh air to hear a different take on debt and shame.

Thank you for your comments, as well.

[beachchick]

I read a very good book that helped me deal with all these issues being discussed, I too felt worthless and embarrassed and shamed, that is until I read Bankruptcy, How To Survive and Prosper, got it on Amazon.com. It really made me see things in a different life and I no longer am beating myself up, instead now I have hope and my future looks bright.

[trigabyte1]

Funny you mention that book. I saw a copy in the "Law Library" in my court's clerk's office.

[sepiid]

paid more than twice over

What makes me able to say i am not screwing over a bank or CC company is the fact that i have paid back over 2x what i have borrowed and still owe.

i did some quick math on one of my CCs. i had it since i was 18~19yo i looked over all my past statements and i have spent about 14k on it in the 10 years i have had it. i went over all my old bank statements showing what i have paid them over the 10 years. right about 26k!!! i looked at my statement today and it shows 23k owing. I have more than paid for what i spent and they still want even more.

for that CITI can go F them selves.

Understandable to a point. I disagree with a few points.. OF course!

I dont think its really fair to mention bail outs. Banks need bail outs because too many people are defaulting on their loans. Now this whole conversation could just run in circles and pointing the blame finger and it ends up being a chick or egg conversation.

Maybe its because I was raised by my grandparents who would kick my ass if I ever mentioned bankruptcy. It was put in place to help the people who are truly in dyer situations and there is no doubt that it has come to a point in time where some (not all, not even a majority, just some) who take advantage of the system. I know I say it a lot, but a lending institution is a business like any other. When people default on their loans you are jacking the bank's bottom line. Like any other for profit business when the bottom line gets jacked cuts have to be made. I see it on here how people cheer the fact that they screw the banks over. The catch to that is that the banks are here to stay. They are not going anywhere. When a burden is placed on them they simply pass the buck on to the next guy in the form of employee layoffs and jacking up fees and interest rates to other customers.

Now personally my household does not take in the income it should and due to student loans and such I am up to my eye balls in debt. I've seen too many good people lose their jobs and the thought that I too could be contributing to the problem scares me. It may be fine for other people, but I would personally be very disappointed in myself.

[Brazzy]

The topic here was "there is no shame". All I was making a point is that its up to the individual. People can justify it anyway they want and feel about it any way they want one way or the other. People here are trying to give reasons why Bk is OK. That in itself indicates that there is a natural shame felt by some people. Thats up to every individual to decide. As for a previous point how some people feel superior because they sold all their stuff before filing. They are not superior, but the act of selling their belongings is another way to justify the Bk filing. To some people BK is an absolute last resort and it puts them at ease to know they did everything in their power to avoid it. My point is this that everyone is going to treat this very differently. There is no right or wrong way to feel.

As for the whole thing about it not being illegal. I mean there are some great points in this thread and its great that people are talking about how BK affected them. However, the whole legality of Bk, or anything for that matter, should have no bearing on emotions. Chris Rock once said: "You can drive a car with your feet if you want to. That don't make it a good F****** idea." There are many things in this country that are completely legal, but are not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, jaywalking is illegal. That doesnt mean you feel shame when you do it.

As for seepiid. Everyone thinks that that 19% or whatever they pay for their credit cards is pure gravy to the creditor. You were primarily paying for someone else defaulting on their credit cards. Welcome to the club.

[funcritter]

I filed BK twice in my lifetime so far, hopefully that is all. The first time was in 1997. I had a 1995 Camaro that needed a transmision after two years of owning it since buying it new. I also had two credit cards, both very small amounts owed, something like $1200 on one and the other was maybe $1000. The car payment was high, something like $597 which was one of my paychecks. That didn't leave much for living and I had just gotten my first apartment in 10/97. Something had to give so it was the car and the CCs. i didn't feel bad about it then and I still don't.

Before my BK was even discharged, I had my first secured CC for $220. A year after that, I got my first real unsecured card from Capital one good for $300. Soon I had three more Capital one cards. Then I got a Juniper MC. a BestBuy card, CircuitCity, BestBuy rewards card, Household bank card, Discover card and about 5-6 others. Soon my CC debt was over $25000 and my mom died in 2006 leaving me the house and a nice mortgage payment. I also had my car payment. I was able to continue paying $100 on some of the cards but as you know, the debt doesn't go down much when you owe $4000 on a card. I did max out several of them before I quit paying on them, especially the BestBuy cards and the Circuit City card but it was almost two years after that, That I filed my BK so none of them objected.

In 9/08, I traded in a car for a new one. Almost immediately, I regretted it and before I made the first payment, I started thinking about BK. About a month later, I decided to keep the car and made two car payments. I was also tired of working two jobs to try and pay for my debt so I quit one and decided to file my BK. It wasn't until April 2010 when I was able to file and the car was long repoed by then and I had no worries since I had a 2006 with barely 33,000 miles on it with no problems with it at all.

I still don't feel bad about filing even though all of my problems were cause by my own stupid faults. There is no right or wrong reason needed to file. Yes, I did get all of those cards by saying I made more than I really did but of course the CC companys never verify income. Maybe they should start? That could save them a whole lot of bad debt owed to them.

Anyways, I have 2 years and 10 months to pay on my 13 sinec I've just now made my second payment of $150. I can afford that over the $1200 I was paying a month for all the debt. I love that payment now. It feels good.

[jdcat]

We just filed for the second time also and there was an element of shame involved. I don't know how to not feel shame in this situation. The stress has been uber bad too. It was either file or have liens placed on our home and vehicles. And have our pay garnished. We *had* to file or risk loosing everything. I wasn't about to let that happen. I truly feel that given some time the shame will turn into a sense of relief but it's hard to fight the shame when it's all so fresh. Time, I guess, does heal all wounds.

I do not regret our decision to file, either time. I would not change anything if I had to do it all over again. When things get this bad common sense has to prevail and one has to forge ahead despite the shame. Sink or swim? We chose to swim.

So yes, I feel shame, but no, I do not regret our decision. It's a double edged sword.

[freefall]

The topic here was "there is no shame". All I was making a point is that its up to the individual. People can justify it anyway they want and feel about it any way they want one way or the other. People here are trying to give reasons why Bk is OK. That in itself indicates that there is a natural shame felt by some people. Thats up to every individual to decide. As for a previous point how some people feel superior because they sold all their stuff before filing. They are not superior, but the act of selling their belongings is another way to justify the Bk filing. To some people BK is an absolute last resort and it puts them at ease to know they did everything in their power to avoid it. My point is this that everyone is going to treat this very differently. There is no right or wrong way to feel.

As for the whole thing about it not being illegal. I mean there are some great points in this thread and its great that people are talking about how BK affected them. However, the whole legality of Bk, or anything for that matter, should have no bearing on emotions. Chris Rock once said: "You can drive a car with your feet if you want to. That don't make it a good F****** idea." There are many things in this country that are completely legal, but are not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, jaywalking is illegal. That doesnt mean you feel shame when you do it.

As for seepiid. Everyone thinks that that 19% or whatever they pay for their credit cards is pure gravy to the creditor. You were primarily paying for someone else defaulting on their credit cards. Welcome to the club.

I will grant you that there is a stigma of shame in filing BK. My title is therefore incorrect, but not the position I'm arguing. If one is in debt such that they can't easily make their payments while continuing to save a bit each month, they need to file bankruptcy. To not do so is hurting society. Society doesn't need people sending their last penny to massive creditors, it needs them out there able to spend anew. Bankruptcy is the only way to get there--that and a decent job.

[freefall]

We just filed for the second time also and there was an element of shame involved. I don't know how to not feel shame in this situation. The stress has been uber bad too. It was either file or have liens placed on our home and vehicles. And have our pay garnished. We *had* to file or risk loosing everything. I wasn't about to let that happen. I truly feel that given some time the shame will turn into a sense of relief but it's hard to fight the shame when it's all so fresh. Time, I guess, does heal all wounds.

I do not regret our decision to file, either time. I would not change anything if I had to do it all over again. When things get this bad common sense has to prevail and one has to forge ahead despite the shame. Sink or swim? We chose to swim.

So yes, I feel shame, but no, I do not regret our decision. It's a double edged sword.

It's going to get better now. Good luck to you.

[meateater]

I'm embarrassed that I filed and have been "hiding" it from friends and family in that its something that's bothering me that I'm not going to bring up unless asked directly. A combination of bad luck and poor decisions on my part caused me to dig myself in too deeply to get out. I don't feel bad that I used a legal means to solve an otherwise unsolveable problem, but feel what I guess is shame for getting myself into the predicament of having no other way out than filing bankruptcy.

the fact that its a public record forever means there's a permanent record of my past mistakes, so its hard to let go of the feelings of regret and shame over the past. But the posts of people who don't feel ashamed or who have gotten over those feelings give me hope that I'll put this in better perspective eventually. I did the best that I could at the time, and have learned a valuable lesson goign through bankruptcy.