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General Frustration & Student Loans

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    General Frustration & Student Loans

    I'm kinda sick and tired of reading (on this forum, of all places) how people who bought 500K houses, fancy cars, lots of fancy clothes, gambled money, and generally acted as stupid as those of us with student loans are somehow more righteous than those of us with the student loans are.

    Are you serious? I know plenty of people, some of whom I went to high school with, who bought too much house and then walked away from it. How does this make them better than me? Is it because they were married and had kids? Does one even really need a 7 bedroom house with a deck and a swimming pool that overlooks the valley and is in a fenced and guarded community? Is this really necessary for life? Is it really necessary to take the kids to Disneyland every year?

    How does the fact that you took little Susie and Billy to Disneyland on credit every year make you better than me? Does that Vegas vacation on credit, complete with the designer goods and a year's worth of lost wages make you more righteous than me? If so, how?

    I am a taxpayer, too, and I have the lovely distinction of being from Nevada, currently stuck in Utah, and watching my home state implode, of watching my hometown (which is Las Vegas) implode...because no one is ever impacted when people walk away from their house! /sarc What a big fat lie, that no one is impacted when you walk away or file bankruptcy! The bank sells your house for less, because you gave it to them, which makes your neighbor's homes worth less, which means that different kinds of people move in, but everyone is walking away (which a ton of people in Vegas are doing right now) then there are tons and tons of houses that no one is living in, and so people squat in those abandoned houses, and people steal from them, and the values of your neighbors houses plunge further.

    And the city and state make nil in property taxes, so the state loses money, so the state raises tuition at UNLV and CSN, and the state cuts services and lays off teachers and the people who file bankruptcy after you have to wait longer to get a 341 because the court is overwhelmed. And the construction industry comes to a halt, and all the supermarkets start to implode. No, no one is impacted when you walk away from the house! No one at all!

    As for the credit cards, well, if enough people file bankruptcy and walk away from homes, well, they raise the rates and get picky who they give credit to. Right now lending in this country is at record lows. Your decisions impact other people. They really do. You don't live on a pond out in the middle of nowhere.

    If we as a country don't do something about student loans, I would love to see bankruptcy law rewritten so all those righteous people who bought too much house are stuck with it until they die, and will have their wages garnished and their social security garnished as well when they are old.

    I borrowed student loans. I also lived with my parents and worked (still am working) through school, yet I'm suffering because of all the people who bought too much house and can just walk away from it like that...and implode both my hometown and Salt Lake City (where I live now) because when they were younger they bought the lie that their home would be worth more someday and was an investment.

    Like those with the fancy 500K house, I was told a lie about college. I was told that a college education would open doors and I would make more. I was told that student loan debt was good debt.

    The only person who said other than that in my life was my father. Even my grandparents, who would not touch a credit card with a ten foot pole, told me this. So I went to college. I did research the student loans. I was told nothing by my college other than that they were "good debt." I transferred to a community college shortly thereafter, bothered by the amount of debt I was wracking up.

    I'm also tired of hearing the lie that those of us in healthcare are working recession proof jobs. Healthcare is not recession proof. Go ask a nursing student. I'm just a nurse's aide, and yet it took me 3 months to find the job I work now, and I'm just a temp! Many of the nurses and doctors I am working with have spent anywhere from 3 months to 1 year unemployed in this economy, all of them with student loans! Maybe before the recession hit, sure, healthcare was the place to be...but now those of us in healthcare are a dime a dozen. And residents, as medical students are more commonly known, don't make much while working as a resident (typically not much more than I make as a nurse aide).

    But to those of you who think you are better than those of us with student loans who bought the fancy house, you really are not any better, nor righteous, than we are. You bought a lie as well. And your actions are impacting me *daily* what with all the neighborhoods that are now ghetto, the decreased tax income (In Nevada to the tune of $800 million; in Utah to the tune of $771 million), and the job loss.

    If my debts cannot be discharged, then neither should yours. And if you want to come back with the line "have you not benefitted from that education" yea, I have benefitted. But did you not benefit from that fancy house, those nice cars, that weekend at Disneyland, that time at the craps table, that fancy Rolex watch/Louis Vuitton handbag?

    My parents don't have student loans. They have one credit card. They bought an older house that has a tacky view of a Mormon church and is right next to the freeway. They don't own designer anything. They haven't been on vacation in 3 years. The cars are all older and paid off. Why should they suffer for the stupid of people who bought more than they could afford, including those who bought too much house?

    My parents' taxes are paying for all those home loan revisions. Do they not have a say in that?
    Last edited by AngelinaCat; 02-28-2010, 06:18 PM.

    #2
    Hello MB: welcome to the forum. I moved your post into it's own thread so that I can be seen for it's own merit and not at the backside of a long list of opinions.

    I also edited your post to make it little bit more 'reader-friendly' with paragraphing and such.

    Thank you and my Best!
    "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

    "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

    Comment


      #3
      Did you get an RN degree out of all these student loans or just a Nurses Aide certificate?
      19% dividend

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by militarybrat View Post
        I would love to see bankruptcy law rewritten so all those righteous people who bought too much house are stuck with it until they die, and will have their wages garnished and their social security garnished as well when they are old.
        I take particular offence to this statement. Am I to understand you are mad because you can't dischard student loans and therefore hate people who BK?
        Filed CH7 Feb 12 2010
        341 March 18
        Discharged...May 18
        Awaiting closing...

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Dannmcg357 View Post
          I take particular offence to this statement. Am I to understand you are mad because you can't dischard student loans and therefore hate people who BK?
          I wouldn't take offense. Here we have a juvenile rant by a self-proclaimed brat. This poster is upset as she entered into debt she knew she would have to repay while many of us entered into debt knowing we had the law behind us should we need to file bankruptcy on this debt. It's a case of envy.
          Last edited by OhioFiler; 03-01-2010, 08:10 AM. Reason: typo
          Well, I did. Every one of 'em. Mostly I remember the last one. The wild finish. A guy standing on a station platform in the rain with a comical look in his face because his insides have been kicked out. -Rick

          Comment


            #6
            Everyone's scenario is different, I don't think you can just lump everyone into one little box like that. So what if you can't discharge the student loan. I spent too much (now I know better) and have a big house however I put 3 kids thru College and I can't discharge any of the loans I had for them, which I am sure is way more $ than you have to owe....so what?! Sometimes you get the good with the bad, it just sounds like you're upset because you can't get rid of the debt....I bet if the law changed tomorrow and you could get rid of it we wouldn't hear any complaining on your part.
            "I'm old enough to know better, but too young to care"
            Filed Chapter 7 January 25th 2010
            341 Hearing March 4th 2010
            Discharged May 10th 2010

            Comment


              #7
              I was ready to take offense when I realized...you used student loans to become a nursing assistant? As a "military brat" you have access to plenty of free money, and a parent's GI bill can now be used for dependents! There were more programs for dependents than there were for active duty folks. I have student loans I can't get rid of, but at least I have a BS and an MS to show for them. I still don't have a Rolex though. Or a Vuitton...you are just asking to get mugged with one of those.

              None of my RN friends have had any trouble finding work. Ditto for doctor friends. If you have a BSN (or any degree for that matter) you have to be willing to move where the jobs are...there are indeed plenty of openings but you are not gonna get the huge salary right out of the gate either. You may not like where you have to live either...but at least you are working. I had friends in Vegas...had being the operative word because they had to move to find work.

              If there is a 2 year degree or less, it sounds like someone is mad because he/she made just as piss-poor a choice as the "too much house" people but can't get rid of their piss-poor choices.
              First consult: You go now, no CH 7 for you. You spent entire buffet. 13 has a 95 percent payback. (Owwwch) On to next consult....

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by flyinbroke View Post
                I

                If there is a 2 year degree or less, it sounds like someone is mad because he/she made just as piss-poor a choice as the "too much house" people but can't get rid of their piss-poor choices.
                yes, but that is a point. why should we as a society favor some bad choices over others? Make a bad choice in love, get a divorce. Make a bad choice in a house, just walk away. Pick the wrong employer who goes bust, collect unemployment. In America we save people from their bad choices all the time. It's called risk dispersion.

                I do think it is a fair and legitimate point to ask why eduction should be different. Especially when one considers that SL are not given out based upon ability to repay.
                So the poor debtor, seeing naught around him
                Yet feels the narrow limits that impound him
                Grieves at his debt and studies to evade it
                And finds at last he might as well have paid it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Well, I don't like the idea of any of them not being dismissable but the law protected government interests, like they do with taxes. I don't agree with the privatized SLs being in the same camp as those that are government backed. I will say a lot of them prey on kids trying to put themselves through school. However, the law says they are protected...and there are plenty of alternatives to SLs. If one is a military brat, they get a lot of free money. Dependents had way more bennies with regard to education. They also had the option of filing FAFs for grants and scholarships.

                  If the OP put his/her education on credit cards, BK would have taken care of the problem. However, someone loaded with anger and more than a slight amount of sanctimony would accuse them of taking long gambling vacations in their BMW while texting on their iPhone and checking their Rolex all day long.

                  Many people who are here are here because of something going awry with life....not because they bought stock in Armani and Ferrari.
                  First consult: You go now, no CH 7 for you. You spent entire buffet. 13 has a 95 percent payback. (Owwwch) On to next consult....

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If I look past the insulting tone of the post, I get your point Dst1. Why are SL non dischargable? I did here of a case in progress where an individual put SL on his petition, and then was sued by the creditor and he argued the loans where discharged due to hardship. Don't know the outcome of the case but maybe someone else does. Maybe its the same reason the IRS can't be discharged, because it is good to be the King

                    Very old case as it turns out:
                    The Supreme Court will decide whether student loans may be forgiven in bankruptcy under certain circumstances. A bankruptcy judge approved a plan for Francisco Espinosa to repay his loan, minus interest. Eleven years later, the lender tried to collect the interest, arguing the repayment plan was void without a finding of undue hardship.
                    Last edited by Dannmcg357; 03-01-2010, 09:47 AM.
                    Filed CH7 Feb 12 2010
                    341 March 18
                    Discharged...May 18
                    Awaiting closing...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      FIB. I'll not comment about the OPs social status other than to point out that even assuming the worst a broke clock is right twice a day and if the point is correct it's correct regardless of their social standing.

                      As for protecting government interests the analogy with taxes is inapt. You can't be taxed on income you never earned. Taxes are just taking a portion out of income. With a student loan you never had any income to begin with. That's what makes it a loan.

                      But beyond that government interests is a sketchy anyway. We argue that home ownership is a "social good" which is why the government is in so deep with the housing market. Yet we let people walk right out the door. How is housing as a social good any different than education as a social good. I don't see it.

                      I agree with you on what the law is. And your point that the person should have known what the law was before they borrowed and can't come crying now is fair. But I think the fact that student loans can't be discharged is a mysterious anomaly that can't be justified.
                      So the poor debtor, seeing naught around him
                      Yet feels the narrow limits that impound him
                      Grieves at his debt and studies to evade it
                      And finds at last he might as well have paid it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dst1 View Post
                        FIB. I'll not comment about the OPs social status other than to point out that even assuming the worst a broke clock is right twice a day and if the point is correct it's correct regardless of their social standing.

                        As for protecting government interests the analogy with taxes is inapt. You can't be taxed on income you never earned. Taxes are just taking a portion out of income. With a student loan you never had any income to begin with. That's what makes it a loan.

                        But beyond that government interests is a sketchy anyway. We argue that home ownership is a "social good" which is why the government is in so deep with the housing market. Yet we let people walk right out the door. How is housing as a social good any different than education as a social good. I don't see it.

                        I agree with you on what the law is. And your point that the person should have known what the law was before they borrowed and can't come crying now is fair. But I think the fact that student loans can't be discharged is a mysterious anomaly that can't be justified.
                        It's justified because of historic abuse.

                        Say I run up $100,000 student loan debt to become a nuclear physicist. When I graduate my income is only $65,000 but I realize I'm on a track to earn $120,000 in 5 years. I bankrupt the student loan debt now so I don't have to carry the burden of the debt to my higher earning years.
                        Well, I did. Every one of 'em. Mostly I remember the last one. The wild finish. A guy standing on a station platform in the rain with a comical look in his face because his insides have been kicked out. -Rick

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dst1 View Post

                          As for protecting government interests the analogy with taxes is inapt. You can't be taxed on income you never earned. Taxes are just taking a portion out of income. With a student loan you never had any income to begin with. That's what makes it a loan.
                          I admit I had to look up inapt, but your wrong on both accounts. If you have a debt forgiven and recieve a 1099 then you are taxed on income you didn't receive. And it is because the Federal Govermnet garantees student loans that they are not discharged in BK unless you have undue hardship, hince the IRS connection
                          Filed CH7 Feb 12 2010
                          341 March 18
                          Discharged...May 18
                          Awaiting closing...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by OhioFiler View Post
                            It's justified because of historic abuse.

                            Say I run up $100,000 student loan debt to become a nuclear physicist. When I graduate my income is only $65,000 but I realize I'm on a track to earn $120,000 in 5 years. I bankrupt the student loan debt now so I don't have to carry the burden of the debt to my higher earning years.
                            This exactly! Everyone would simply take out student loans, go to the best schools, graduate and then file bankruptcy. It would be a rite of passage. Why wouldn't everyone do it? It opens the door to abuse.

                            I would have LOVED to have gone away to a 4-year university and earned my degree. However, I couldn't afford it and didn't want to take on massive debt to do it. So I attended a junior college, lived cheaply, and worked my way through school paying cash. It's certainly a much longer, harder road, but it is possible. If student loans were allowable in bk, then I certainly would have used them to my advantage, taken the easier road, and then filed on them.
                            Filed Chapter 13 on 2-28-10. 341 completed 4/14/10. Confirmed 5/14/10. Lien strip granted 2/2/11
                            0% payback to unsecured creditors, 56 payments down, 4 to go....

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Just read the OP's thread, got a question about student loans. Were they considered dischargable in BK before the 2005 BK reform laws took place?
                              Chapter 13 filer since Feb. 2018 under a 60 months payment plan
                              Please think positive and do not give up!

                              Comment

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