Question Advise needed: Helping Children Deal with Bankruptcy (Un-spoiling them)

[DiamondsR]

My children are driving me up the wall right now.

(Summary: left abusive marriage in 08; repatriated to US while he was in custody for beating my oldest son – his stepson. He’s a scientist and was pretty angry when we left. He’s drug his heels on the divorce, hasn’t paid one cent in child support.

I had what I thought was a year’s salary saved up to live here until I found a job. Repatriating to the US with literally nothing but my savings and two suitcases sucked up my savings and retirement. You’d be amazed how fast it goes with just the bare necessities. That disappeared somewhere in 04/09 and declared BK 11/09).

I had a teaching position from 10/08 until 1/09 when the private school I worked at laid me off (to my shock) because they ran out of money. Thank God for that so I could qualify for UI eventually because otherwise I would have had to subsist on even less. I get a whooping $482 a week on UI. I am unemployed (have been for over a year now), can’t find a teaching position or anything at this point to save my life. Unemployment suggested I pursue additional training so I’m enrolled at a uni p/t .

Although declaring Ch 7 has helped me reassess my life, I also realize that I could very well be unemployed for years. The student loans I’ve had to take out are beginning to worry me because although Employment Security is still paying my UI benefits (through the extended program), at this point I am staring at $25,000 in loans at this point. I am considering transferring to a cheaper university. I do not have any credit cards anymore and don’t plan on getting any EVER anymore.

My youngest is/was a soccer phenom and plays at the highest level in the state (he used to play for a jr professional team in Europe). In Europe, he received a stipend but in the US it’s more like paying for his soccer is killing me (as an unemployed single parent).

The other parents on the team (in a pretty wealthy part of town) have no sympathy whatsoever (the kind of people who would make Marie Antoinette proud) and seem to enjoy putting out money hand over fist. The kind of kids that have brand new Nike Vipers every week in every color while I now drag my kid to Big 5 for the sales (which he hates). The coach sent out that the kids have to go to Arizona to play a game on a holiday weekend. I thought I would be working by now (he sent out the notice the week that I had been hired by the insurance benefits company that later rescinded the offer).

I do not have the money (he hasn’t gone on trips before because I do not have the money to send him). I moved out of my old place and found a new townhouse that was a LOT less than the old place so I am paying my rent now. If I let him go, I have to go with him and it would cost at least $2000. That’s money I was going to save to buy a car cash.

Around the summer, when things were really bad, we didn’t go on a vacation for the first time in their lives. My kids were raised very spoiled back when my ex and I were together (he made a lot of money and I probably overcompensated for the turmoil in their lives with his abusive behavior). We’re talking cruises, international trips every holiday period; their passports are full of exotic stamps but honestly I don’t think they even appreciate it because all they do is complain.

I just told my youngest that we can’t afford the $2000 for him to go play for a weekend with his team and he’s having a fit because our poverty is destroying his soccer career (in his words. I refuse to say a bad word about his dad being a deadbeat so he doesn’t even know his father honored the court ordered payments). Whenever they ask for things now, I tell them I have a budget and no, they can’t have an iPhone, brand new clothes, etc. My oldest, who has autism (PDD-NOS) most of the time is ok but today when he asked me if he could learn how to drive (he’s 17) and I told him he would have to wait until April when I could save up for it, he said, “You should have stayed with Eric. He used to beat us but we weren’t poor”. It hurt me to the core because I struggled to leave him after 14 years of sheer he**, thought my son understood and the mere fact I tell the kids we have to budget now, I don’t have credit cards to use and no, we can’t go out to eat. I’m not working, for God’s sake! He also knows he receives a whooping $197 per month for SSI (for his disability) and he just told me he wants all of HIS money because he doesn’t want to support me (so I guess I have to cancel that order of caviar! My first husband also left the country after his birth rather than ever pay a cent of child support so I’ve supported him my entire life alone).

Then an hour later, the youngest asks me if he can have a new pair of pants (mind you I haven’t bought any new clothes since 08). I said to bring me his pants and I would sew them because he’d need to wait until April (again, saving). He’s 12 (and my ex-husband’s spitting image) and tells me, “Why don’t you get a husband or something so you can afford stuff”. Again, I go through explaining I am budgeting. Then I explained to both kids that I will be getting a new car and it will be smaller and cheaper since I am not reaffirming the soccer mom special I have. They’ve been insulting the cars I want to get (as long as it moves, I don't care what it looks like).

I need to save because not only have I exhausted my entire savings that I thought would serve as a basis for my retirement, but I even when the bk is discharged, the fact that I am still looking for a job during the day and only take two classes a week at night means I need to save even IF I find something finally paying a livable wage, I have a big hole to dig out of (when they'll be on their merry way as adults hopefully. I don't want to be a burden on them).
I am looking for work all day, cook, clean, chauffeur the soccer prince and they just don’t seem to get it. I don’t know how to re-set them to be less spoiled and not spit all over me because I’m bankrupt. I love them and willingly made sacrifices for them but is this just puberty or just incorrigible kids? How do I fix this?

My physician and later a psychiatrist said I have post traumatic stress disorder (after being isolated so long) to make matters worse. I don't want to tell the kids this (they are only kids) but when they hurl these insults at me, I get flashbacks of the ex (he used to hurl verbal insults before he would hit).

I feel a million times better since I declared Chapter 7 and the one job I was finally offered was rescinded because I have a bk (despite the fact I told them throughout the interview process that I had declared chapter 7). There was a period where although I wasn’t suicidal per se, I wouldn’t move out of the way if a truck were about to hit me.

Any advice please? I love my kids but am beginning to feel like they’re monsters but maybe I am expecting too much. How do your children react to the new rules/life after bankruptcy? I have no family except for my father (who is 93 years old and when I speak to him, he keeps repeating himself and I’m starting to worry that maybe he’s not mentally all there. He becomes combative if I even mention that he should either move in with us or have someone come in and watch him but I can’t afford it).

I know, I'm all over the place. Sorry

[AngelinaCat]

Hello DiamondsR

You and I collided as you were editing your post, and I was editing it to make it a little more 'reader friendly.

I feel for you as you have a real problem on your hands with your children. Unfortunately, you and your ex-husband created them by giving them everything they wanted. Now that they are teenagers, it is only worse. You MUST be firm with them, that the word 'no' means "NO". They will try to bully you, harangue you and manipulate you any way they can to get what they want. They only see the 'here and now' and the immediate want. They do not have background to understand the need to wait and save.

This is your opportunity to educate them in the realities of life, while they are still at home--I understand your relocation--and have some semblance of a home life and home 'cushion' for them.

But this is the time that they need to get out and get part-time jobs themselves. They have no need to demand that you do it. Remind them that YOU are the parent, not they, and if they want their expensive Nike whatevers, THEY have to go and get a job and earn them. Explain also that they ARE expected to contribute o the running of the household; they are young men now, and not babies, and are to start behaving as such.

It is honorable that you do not wish to 'trash' their father verbally to them. But you are seeing the results of what living in an abusive household can do to children, with them coming on to you with their mouths and attitudes. You will have to tell them, that such language, verbology, threats, whatever they are throwing at you is not acceptable. That all of you are living under NEW RULES, and that is the way it is.

You have to stand firm.

If they wish to balk, then drive them to the nearest Salvation Army shelter and let them stay there for a while. Actually, it would probably do them a world of good to work at a soup kitchen for the homeless or some other situation.

Ms DiamondsR, that's my two cents for right now. Just know you are not alone.

[DiamondsR]

Thanks for fixing my post, as well as the sage advice.
I was pretty upset while I was typing it and lost the ability to speak English in the process.

Unfortunately, the 17 year old can't find work easily because of his PDD-NOS but having him volunteer would be a great idea. Thank you.

[tigergem]

Hey diamonds. First a *hug*. I am sorry for your troubles. Secondly, although I have 2 sons, I don't know what to tell you about instilling certain values upon them if you didn't begin that training and understanding at a much earlier age.

Having said that, there a couple of things you and your soccer phenom can do to raise money for his trip. First, there is an organization called modestneeds.org that might be able to help you partially with some other expense, (under $1000) so that you can free up those funds to help him go. Secondly, this is what a child of a friend of mine is doing this to raise money to go to on a trip ... http://saxon1112.blogspot.com/. I think your child is old enough to learn the value of earning, begging and clawing his own way to what he wants in life. Just teach him how to handle DEBT before he incurs it.

You are avoiding authenticity if you don't tell your children when they hurt your feelings. It is really ok to say "ouch" when they say mean and hurtful things. Otherwise, it seems to me that you are teaching them that is ok to be insensitive to other people's feelings.

Beyond that. Since you are The Mom, "Because I Said So" always works, too.

Good luck.

[AngelinaCat]

Thanks for fixing my post, as well as the sage advice.
I was pretty upset while I was typing it and lost the ability to speak English in the process.

Not a problem. I have a friend who considers the English language as 'Organized gibberish'.

[calgirl67]

Pull your son out of the snob soccer scene immediately - he'll get used to it. You know, I was not born in this country and even though I grew up with well-off professional parents, I was not given anything and everything in any manner. I had to go work in my dad's company on school vacation time to earn anything I wanted. I still to this day, don't give a sh..t about designer or brand name crap (yes it is just CRAP.. it means nothing to me).

So after living in the States for 12+yrs, and seeing most of our friends kid's grow up and now in high school, it disturbs me to see how materialistic and self-centered they are. I have noticed the public schools in this country have a culture of being so materialistic and competitive. It is really, really sad to see these kids grow in a culture where they see ther self-worth as only what they possess, not what or who they are.

Time to snap them out of it. In my opinion, when they say things like "get another husband so you can buy stuff" you need to be bringing them down to earth real fast and let them know that is in no way appreciated and they should be grateful they have a mom who loves them... and maybe it's about time they hear the truth about their dad??

If they don't like your choice or car tell them they are welcome to WALK.

[DiamondsR]

You are avoiding authenticity if you don't tell your children when they hurt your feelings. It is really ok to say "ouch" when they say mean and hurtful things. Otherwise, it seems to me that you are teaching them that is ok to be insensitive to other people's feelings.

Beyond that. Since you are The Mom, "Because I Said So" always works, too.

Good luck.

Thank you Tigergem!

You know, when they were younger I could feel that things were going in a direction I didn't like but my ex had a "my son deserves to have the best" mantra that I then felt obligated to keep up with my older son too. All they talk about are "things" and I look like a bag lady while they expect to look like they walked off the set of a tv series. I remember back in the late 70s when my father lost his job (and my mother was a stay-at-home parent), my sisters and I pitched in and helped for a year and we were younger than they are. We would not have dreamt of saying half of the things my kids dare to say to me and I haven't responded because I think I'm an adult and shouldn't pander to their insults but it hurts. Part of me feels like a huge failure because I can't give them the things they want and the other part thinks it's actually good that they finally have to save. When they insult me, I think, "there's no way you're getting it now, buddy". The older one and his it was ok to be beaten for money line was like he stabbed me in the heart, like my value as a human being meant nothing to him as long as he could have what he wanted. I felt like the air had been knocked out of me.

Pull your son out of the snob soccer scene immediately - he'll get used to it. ..........

If they don't like your choice or car tell them they are welcome to WALK.

Kids everywhere are more materialistic now, probably because of parents like my ex and I used to be (spoiling kids to keep them from another reality). I have to fix this somehow now. My kids were materialistic in Europe (raised in Bloemendaal - a super snooty part of Holland) and I thought that was bad but when they got here on the Eastside, it got even worse. I actually think being on this soccer team made things worse (they are the best in the state but from the $200 per month in fees, the hundreds of dollars per month on gasoline, the national tournaments and invitationals, uniform costs, he's the only one who can do anything.

[ToughTimes]

DiamondsR,

Have you managed to complete a divorce from the one child's scientist father? You should not have trouble extracting child support from him. Lord knows the laws decidedly favor you in this situation. I know my husband's ex had no trouble obtaining free legal counsel and I know many states have increasingly uncomfortable penalties for fathers who don't pay as agreed. I don't know where you are, but I do know my husband's home state will revoke driver's licenses and will even put a man in prison for contempt of court if he does not pay his child support. IRS will keep any refunds he'd receive if he owes child support (and I presume they forward the funds to the state and the state sends them along to the custodial parent). Please call your local Child Services and find out what you need to do. It should not cost you.

If you are having trouble effectively asserting authority in your household, or if your children have behaviors you are not able to realign in a reasonable time, I'd recommend family counseling. A counselor should be able to help you all (not including your ex) communicate in more productive ways and help learning new communication patterns can be most valuable when in a new situation such as you are. And communicating a value system that works for all of you sounds like it's on the table right now. Your sons also seem to be mirroring the unacceptable behavior of your former spouse. That needs to stop asap. You should be able to obtain counseling free, too, given that you're not earning.

It sounds like you may not be well networked with people in situations similar to yours. I'm not shy and I don't know for sure, but I'd call the local battered women's shelter and ask them to direct me to services for those in need but unable to pay. They should be able to hook you up with whatever local counseling is available for free or sliding scale cost. Often you can just call a counselor from the phone book and they'll know where to refer you if they don't do free or sliding scale work themselves.

I also second Angelina Cat's suggestion that it's time for them to get part time work. My son discovered early on that if he wanted anything that cost much, he had to find a car to wash or a lawn to mow or pets to care for or gardens to weed or something else appropriate. There is a connection between work and money and it's a fine thing to help your sons make that connection firmly. (And just as fine a thing for us to teach daughters starting at an early age.) Your sons may even find a sense of service in the work if they are fortunate enough to find odd jobs to do for someone who is just too frail or weak or disabled to do them for themself anymore.

I wish I could give you some simple, quick remedy, but I can't think of one. I wish it could be easier, too, but that does not appear to me to be in the nature of the (parenting) job.

[DiamondsR]

Thanks, ToughTimes.
When we first arrived here, I found a support group and only went to two meetings because it conflicted with soccer practice.

The problem is my soon to officially be ex-husband is Dutch, is a research biologist and lives in Europe so having him take care of his son has been like pulling teeth; none of the US laws apply to him (and he knows it). The Dutch court is scheduled to rule officially on the divorce on Feb 4th.

My Dutch attorney claims that I can expect to start receiving 2000 euro a month after March but I don't dare tell my sons that (or they will start thinking they can spend all of it every month on clothes). That's why I keep saying "wait until we save in April" to them but with my new attitude, I really don't believe in credit cards at all anymore and if I can't pay for something or save, I don't want it. I don't have a job lined up and I'm still scared (and the fact the money will be sent in euros doesn't give me a good feeling as I'm at the mercy of the exchange rate). If the heavens opened up and he paid all the back child support, the payment would be exempted.

I usually cut the older one a little bit of slack because of the PDD-NOS but the younger one doesn't have autism.

Thanks to everyone for just listening to my plea for advice here. You've really helped (and I will look into counseling). I just want to try and fix the damage I've done over these years (without losing my mind in the process).

[newbie2]

If you can afford to do so, please consider counseling for you and the boys. It's been a rough time for all of you.

Also, it's past time for a "sit down" with these boys and a hard frank discussion (with spreadsheet if you have to) of monthly expenses vs income.

I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time with them understanding.

[tigergem]

It has been my experience that places with a high tax base have excellent social services for those who cannot afford it. Which might be why you encounter apathy from the other soccer moms.

Things you need to find out about are usually at the County level. A good place to start looking if you are unsure where to begin is your County health department. From there you will find one thing right after another to help you.

Also I would humbly suggest that since you are a teacher by trade that you start offering private tutoring. To begin a private business venture like that you might want to go visit your local Economic Development Center for assistance. Do not undervalue your skills.

[DiamondsR]

It has been my experience that places with a high tax base have excellent social services for those who cannot afford it. Which might be why you encounter apathy from the other soccer moms.

Things you need to find out about are usually at the County level. A good place to start looking if you are unsure where to begin is your County health department. From there you will find one thing right after another to help you.

Also I would humbly suggest that since you are a teacher by trade that you start offering private tutoring. To begin a private business venture like that you might want to go visit your local Economic Development Center for assistance. Do not undervalue your skills.

I will start calling around King County tomorrow. Thanks. That support group I went to before was free (the one that conflicted with soccer) but I may just start bringing the older one while the little one practices.

The day one of the soccer moms told me she couldn't understand how a family could live on less than 200K a year, I knew I had a problem. LOL. In her words, those kind of people are stupid or just want to be poor or didn't save (yes, her dear hubby is a banker). The rest are all doctors, bankers, and execs from a certain software company that have the help drop off the kids and they show up during practice (or at the game) talking to each other for an hour and then connected to their cell phones. There is only one other "hardship" family on the team, a boy whose father was laid off about five months ago (he worked in construction and his wife worked as a housekeeper and was also laid off) and they were on their "how did they even survive on $50,000 a year on the eastside). We're both struggling to keep shoes on our kids feet and gasoline in the car (I approached them about carpooling to save $). Ironically, they are arguably the best players on the team (sometimes I think the other parents resent their playing time but after a year, I try not to go to anymore games because they say jokingly ask me things like when am I going to buy new clothes for myself. If they knew I declared bankruptcy, they'd probably banish me to the other side of the field).

I had tried to start a tutoring business back in May 09 and approached Employment Security about it and they were the ones who redirected me to training/education (saying that parents were cutting back on expenses and there are so many unemployed teachers here that I wouldn't make a liveable wage). Then she warned me that starting a business would mean I would not earn my UI payments and gave me a pile of paperwork to fill out for training benefits (post-secondary English teachers are not on the demand list). Maybe I just got a worker on a bad day but I'm going to go back to ESD on Monday too.

Thank you!

[LadyInTheRed]

To expand on newbie2's suggestion, sit the boys down and show them your budget. Ask them what changes they suggest to pay for the things they want. They'll probably come up with some impractical suggestions and you'll have to explain why they won't work. Maybe they'll suggest some changes that are workable. Just be sure the make sure they understand the consequences of any changes they suggest. This will be a good way to teach them about budgeting for their own future and show them that it isn't as easy as they think.

Also, it sounds like you live in a pretty affluent area. Try taking your kids on a drive to a less affluent neighborhood and show them where most families in your income range live. Try to find an area where they will see kids who don't where the nice clothes they do. Tell them how hard you are working to make sure you can live in a better neighborhood, but you still can't afford the same things as the people around you. Not all kids are more materialistic these days. There are many who know they can't have everything they want and are thrilled to just get a soccer ball for Christmas so they can go to the park or a dirt lot to play with it.

The company I work for works hires disable adults through an organization that helps the adults integrate into the work world. The employees have counselors who come and help train them and then occasionally come to the office with the employee to go through their work day and point out where they may need to improve and work to resolve any issues. These people are excellent employees. There was an autistic woman who worked with us for years. We threw her a retirement party a couple of years ago. Your son is almost an adult and should be learning to help support himself, despite the challenges he faces. I wonder if a similar organization exists in Washington. If you are interested, I can get the name of the organization here in California. Maybe they know of similar organizations in other areas.

Some good news: according to xe.com, 2,000 Euros = US$2,772.48. The exchange rate actually works in your favor. You're smart not to let your kids know about the anticipated child support. You know they'll be counting those chickens way before they hatch.

Maybe you should tell your sons that father's are supposed to help support their kids too and that you are doing the job of 2 parents. Suggest they write to him to ask him to send money for all the things they want. If he sends money, great. If not, they'll see for themselves what kind of father he is.

Hang in there and keep standing your ground. Your doing a great job of staying off the credit cards and living within your means. Don't let your kids bully you like your ex did!

[Flamingo]

After reading your initial posting and all following postings, you need to realize you have been through two major life events in a short period of time and may I suggest to you that you probably are suffering from depression as life events (divorce, filing BK, etc., etc.) set off extreme emotions and problems in trying to adjust to something somewhat normal. Before you will be able to get things back on track in your life, you have to make this about "you" and not about your son's soccer or what anyone else has or does. Get yourself in to your family doctor (don't have one? Look in the phone book under General Practice or ask a friend who they can suggest for a family doctor). Sit down and have a talk with this doctor about your situation, how you feel and what is going on. You also need a support group of folks in similar situations and you have to learn to say "no" to your childen. Kids hate it when the gravy train ends and they really have no idea what is going on...The best thng to do is to put your situation in black and white to them - sit down with them with some figures on paper and explain to them what happened and why there is no money. Tell them you are working hard for all this to change and are working to ensure things will get better for them. Tell them you need their cooperation and that includes doing without some things until things get better.

One worry you do have is your son exhibiting some of the control exhibited by your husband during your marriage. He will try to treat you the same way your ex-husband treated you as it is a learned behavior from watching your interaction withi your ex in the past. If you do not do something about this now, he willi continue to treat you that way and also treat future women in his life the same.

Step one is to take care of yourself and when you have yourself in gear, the rest will start to fall into place. Do not worry what anyone else says or thinks. All that matters right now is you, your future and ensuring your kids have food on the table and a roof over their head. Soccer doesn't matter.

[tigergem]

I will start calling around King County tomorrow. Thanks. That support group I went to before was free (the one that conflicted with soccer) but I may just start bringing the older one while the little one practices.

Thank you!

Wow you are way too passive. I would not call the health department. I would GO THERE. Reason being, there are lots of brochures and pamphlets to pick up and bulletin boards to read ... and calling there, you won't get as much help as if you go there and get in their face. After you have nosed around a bit at the information that is available go to the information desk. In their face, you will get a lot more help than on the phone.

As for tutoring. Ok fine, you don't want to advertise your services or set up a real business? Fine. Don't. Check around in various newspapers and there are sites on the internet for this as well... craigslist, maybe...respond to ads for people looking for tutors. I certainly would not volunteer this information to the Unemployment Office. It might be a one time shot to pick up an extra $50, that doesn't make it a J-O-B.