Could Lawyers be abusing the new BK law?

[PacificBlue]

Thanks Duncan.

I really had hopes this subject would just fade away. People are aware of the abuse from people for the all mighty dollar. You are correct that my findings came from speaking with 10 attorneys. Nine of them all but said, "There no money in filing a 7". (they were more crafty in wording though).

Yes, HHM and justbroke gave great advise, but my state of mind at the time was anger due to talking with bone headed greedy lawyers in a time where we needed help. I posted all that before we found "Mr Right".

It's just sicking we had to talk with so many to find one. I truly believe there needs to be stricter guidelines governed by the state and feds on this matter. I do not have a low opinion of attorneys in general, I have a low opinion of any who takes advantage of anyone. (especially in situation like BK)

I'm also sickened by doctors, and pharmaceutical companies on what they charge to treat cancer. There is always hope for cure, but in reality there is billions, and billions being made on treating it, what's the incentive to have a cure? The one company alone that makes one of the drugs I'm on net income was 700 billion last year. That is profit off ONE drug in treating cancer.

[BKman]

I'm going through the same attorney problem right now. They said in the begining that I would go chapter 7. After I paid them in full they then said I'm $169 over the income and have to go 13. The means test agrees with me. Waiting to hear back. If 13 is the only way for now then I will just go back in 6 month and try again.

[PacificBlue]

BKman, we know what you are going through, and no doubt a lot of people on here does too. Before I pay a retainer fee I want all the numbers off our work sheet done. I'm willing to pay for my attorneys time for that, since we already had our free visit. All but one wanted the retainer up front before that. Yeah, not gonna happen. I don't walk into a store and leave $1,000 on the counter before I shop just in case I spend that much.

In short I'm trying to take away the "carrot dangling in front of an attorneys nose". (The carrot being our money). The one we saw agreed to do it that way but said no charge anyway. If we like it, we retain him. Others kind of smirked, and said it didn't work that way. (in my world and with my money it does).

Here's what really got me. Nine out of the ten (on our free talk) said we HAD to go a 13 because we were over. (they all had the same info). The one we are almost 100% sure we are going with said, it actually looks like it could go either way due to medical expenses. (not enough money left to be in a 13).

The way we look at it, 9 out of 10 lawyers talked themselves out of our money.*but none of them appeared to be hurting for the work*

IF, we can go either way, we still are not sure what's better for us. I tried getting some thoughts on another thread, but I think I made some of the posters on here mad, (with this thread) and have not seen many replies. (its okay though, I'm doing more research in other places).

[PacificBlue]

I would like to offer my apologies for being so open on my opinion (right or wrong) but closed minded on this subject. Truly I did not mean to offend anyone, and it seems I did. Even reading back my own posts is embarrassing to me now I have a clearer picture on the matter. (finding the right lawyer for me too). At the time I was taking it out (revisiting Shakespeare's "kill all the lawyers") on all lawyers. I was wrong.

When I think back with clear thoughts, I simply see the other attorneys I talked with (for what ever reason) was simply not interested in championing my case. After all, it's not going to be a simple one to plead. I have very large expenses for medical reasons that most didn't understand, (or did, but didn't want to get involved with). Most only listened like "yeah.. uh huh.. I see" then say, "Its $1000 to $1500 upfront but they (the court) aren't gong to allow you the XYZ you have listed". (Making statements like that with out even trying, was very frustrating).

So, for what it's worth, I'm truly sorry if I offend anyone. The most important thing on my mind is out living this cancer in good health. (and no that doesn't mean getting hit by a buss next week.. ha ha). I would even take so-so health as long as I'm not a burden to my wife.

If the mods are seeing this thread, it's okay by me to remove it from the site. It can be seen as slandering lawyers, and that's not a good thing.

[justbroke]

No worries, we could tell that your took the whole lawyer thing personally, but our comments were really to help to calm you and to help others who may find similar barriers to finding the right attorney.

We are very glad that you have found an attorney that will work for you. As you discovered, some lawyers in this specific practice area (Bankruptcy) don't like litigation, so stay away from the more "complex" cases. Even though your case may not seem complex, simply being over-the-median is a complexity flag for the attorneys, and even the United States Trustee (UST).

We hope you stay around and continue to help others, as you have been doing. As a community, we need each other to get through the bad times and then to help direct others as they enter and exit the process.

The key to Bankruptcy, as you're discovering, is not to internalize or take things personally. It's all business!

[sadjenny]

the 2nd lawyer I went to, he's pushing me to chapter 13. I was so disgusted, we are a family of three, the IRS food allowance is 626 (maybe plus 5%). He said to put 500 so the trustee will not question it. On transportation, I put down 406 for two cars. We fill up at least once a week. and gas tank is 44 dollars. He said maybe it's safe to put 300. I was thinking of filing for chapter 7. If I put down what's on the IRS standard is that still questionable?

[HHM]

I hate these "play it safe" lawyers. Granted, there justification is probably that they can't charge you enough (or you can't afford) to actually push the envelope (and there is some truth to that), but still...the only time you go below the IRS standards is if you don't actually spend that amount and if asked, could not justify the amount of expense.

[momisery]

When I was a young out of highschool kind of kid I worked at the courthouse as a court room clerk. Our job was to just take notes seat by the judge. I found it very interesting back then, all the back alley deals. Everyday I was in court I heard attorneys talking about deals, okay last time I gave it to you soyou need to give it to em this time... Or, a plea agreement off the books prior to court starting up. I saw deals go down even in circuit court over a moving violation reduced to a parking ticket so the fine was collect but the license was not collected. That was done usually for someone who was a "friend" of the courts. There are crooks for sure in court, and attorneys can be crooks, doctors can be.. I guess anyone can be. But attorney are just about as low as bankers in the reputation category, but that does not mean everyone of them is on the take. But it does mean there are serious problems in our society.

[tigergem]

The argument made me a little uncomfortable, because I don't like conflict, but I was not offended. I filed my Ch. 13 pro se not because I have anything against attorneys but because I did not have the money to retain one. A couple of years before I actually filed, I did consult with attorneys about filing (when I still lived in a place where we actually had BK attorneys). You have to understand, your free consultation takes away from their billable hours. Maybe some attorneys value their own time more than they do the "potential" (or not) client. You might find that is so in any profession. I didn't go to a BK mill, but each of the three I consulted with gave me one hour of their time and actually ran my numbers. Granted, I am sure they were still shooting from the hip with regard to some of what they told me, but I felt valued as a potential client by each of them. I definitely did not think any of them were trying to play me. It would have been a tough choice if I would have actually had to pick one to retain. I probably would have picked the cutest one. lol. I guess bottom line is, when choosing an attorney (or doctor...or mechanic...or hairstylist) we have to choose both within our means and our comfort level with the expertise of the person we are dealing with.

On the subject there that sadjenny and HHM are discussing... isn't "playing it safe" one reason so many Ch 13s fail in the first place? I mean seriously. That just seems crazy to try to underestimate your actual necessary expenses.

[coolmom04]

First, I have to say I am so thankful for all the knowledge I am gaining from everyone here! Thank you!!!

I met with two attorneys and spoke with two over the phone. Three of them flat out told us ch13 b/c we are almost 7-8K over the median and they would not do a 7 at all (this was without running numbers except income). The one we chose first (and is a BK mill so I am already nervous) told us 13 at first. I told them I really wanted 7 b/c I felt we qualified for it, but I just knew after our three meetings and them, them running all the numbers, we would be told 13 only. We had also been told that if we were even borderline questionable with our expenses, they would not do a 7! So, that also had me thinking I'd go somewhere else. So, I found someone else that I really liked, but again was told 13 after originally saying a 7.

So, I went in for my final meeting with my first choice (BK mill) and was told that we qualify for 7 with no problem whatsoever.

We are a family of six. Some of the expenses that worry me is $390/month for preschool for two children. This is so that I can attend school myself. The attorney said this was completely acceptable and had no worries. Our car payments are $900/month. Our mortgage is $1503/month, life insurance is $100/month, car insurance $150/month, food $1000/month, and so on.

So, I am supposed to get my contract this coming week that says we are filing ch7 with everything printed out for me and pay the retainer fee. Now, once again, I am second guessing my decision to go with the BK mill b/c what if they say I am okay for 7, then I pay the $2900 fees, then they claim only ch13! Ugh.

[tigergem]

kailansmom! I am the only one on this board allowed to drive myself crazy with "whatif" statements! It is so decreed! Breathe. If it says 13 tell them HEY and don't pay the retainer until they make it right. Unless they have a really good reason and can tell you why.

[Michigan1951]

This thread sets the bar HIGH!!

Wow, I began reading from the top on this thread, and I am impressed. PacificBlue has so much on his plate, and this financial mess he is in along with being very sick, would be too much for many to handle here.

But, the seasonal bk members on the posts here are giving sincere answers by keeping in mind PacificBlue's situation all the way around. Then comes PacificBlue full circle and re-reads his posts and apologizes to the voluntary bk members giving their opinions on his issues. This is what makes this forum so highly recommended for bk filers to enter into honest and open conversations, and all with different situations.

I just wanted to say, PacificBlue, we all care, and wish you better health and wealth in this 2010. Your opinions do shed a different light on the entire process from beginning to end on this forum. I think finding the right lawyer, one that finally provides you with what you want to hear, maybe, is the most difficult of all. It is your call, until you decide to walk away or accept it. That is your right. I don't think anyone would want to take on a fight with the bar association regarding bad lawyer behavior in the midst of trying to setup a bk case, unless they have nerves of steel. Added stress only reaks havoc. Filing bk is stressful enough for sure.

God Bless, and glad to see you here!!

[onwards]

Which is another reason I admire my lawyer. I came in armed with research up the wazoo and convinced I needed to go 13. He spent his time looking at stuff, called me in his office, sat me down and said "listen buddy, you need to go 7. I know I'll make more money off of you if I put you through a 13, but for your own good, 7 is the way to go". Then he spent time explaining why. I did a 7. He was absolutely right.

I have since then referred more than a dozen people to him.

[pcn]

My lawyer laid out the pro's and con's of each, and where we might have issues (2nd mortgage, income above median, etc) and then basically let us choose. I have sent back 3 drafts so far and they have rerun/modified the numbers each time, with their approval. We hope to have our ch7 filed this week. They have been very supportive through the whole process and really seem to want to help us through it. Yes, we paid for their services, but they had the human touch that the others we interviewed didn't. Now, we pray that human touch continues through the rest of the process. Bottom line - there are decent atty's out there. (Maybe it's just a southern gentleman/honor kind of thing...)

[facingfuture]

I agree with nc73 - then find an attorney who will do what you ask. I think you are wasting valuable energy on hating lawyers and looking for a fight. The bottom line is that no attorney has to take your case and if you keep calling, having free consultations, and then threatening them with filing complaints, you might find it difficult to find an attorney who has credibility with the trustees - and that could make your bankruptcy process more painful than it needs to be. You also have the option of filing pro se if you feel so strongly that lawyers are corrupt. Bottom line - save your emotional energy for the bankruptcy process and good luck.