First Consult: I think I get it now!!

[Bex]

Okay, I met with an attorney--he gave me about an hour, really, very nice!

I was really (REALLY) hoping he'd look over the numbers I brought and say "yep, slam dunk--meet you at the courthouse at 8?" This did not happen.

My income is too high (after my recent pay increase, $12k/yr over!) and my debt too low. HAHAHAHAHAHA! okay, seriously, he said that my dischargeable debt of $13500 -something was too low. He asked me if I had considered taking out a loan (I should have asked "are you offering?") or other alternatives--maybe this is standard, maybe not.

Then we discussed the $16,700 in student loan debt that changes the picture, somewhat, though still not enough for his liking.

Then I proceeded to add on the medical and child-related stuff--I have had 2 surgeries in the past 5 years and have a good bit more than average "health" spending in my household--if need be, I can prove it. Same with the kiddo--football and teenagerhood is not cheap--I have put nearly every expense in my life on that trusty old (now burnt) USB debit card--it's time to go back, line-by-line and do some forensics. At a bare minimum, for my own budgetary purposes.

My other concerns: if I stop the direct deposit that I took the cash advance against, is that criminal? Can I protect the $1k that my uncle gave to my son? Were non-issues. Oh yah, I shouldn't charge on the Discover ;P

I kind of had a meltdown and told him that the only reason I even care about chapter 7 over chapter 13 is that I want to be able to have a life. These money issues have taken an extreme toll on my health and, if I'm to survive and be successful long-term, I need to know that there will be an definitive end to this mess. So, I thought I really wouldn't mind a chapter 13, even, at least you get a specific point in the future beyond which you will be FREE! He said no, you really really don't want to do a chapter 13 --too much scrutiny, too expensive, truly I don't think I could handle 5 years on a leash like that--it would kill me!

So...the more questions he asked, the more meaningful they became and by the end, it sounded like he felt there was more merit...it would probably fly for a ch 7, but it will endure extreme scrutiny.

Now I have to search my heart (and my records!) --afterall, if it's truly that "close", maybe I should just suck it up and do the Dave Ramsey snowball. If I truly believe that I can implement my new budget plan and keep control from now on, with some (fairly decent-sized) cuts, I should be able to get back in control of this ship, right?

But, as I told law man: I want to be able to start NOW--I have zero security--if one single thing happens, this house of cards is DONE...and I suppose, that's where some of you are--that last straw came in. But I was congratulating myself for seeing the writing on the wall--do I really have to wait until something horrible happens to file?

And what about my son? In < 1 year, I lose that Earned Income Credit...in < 2 years, he'll be heading for college. I want to be in a position to be able to help him--at least in an emergency or something!!

Oh I just don't know.

But I do finally GET the means test now. The bloody test is not a pass/fail, you folks go ch7, you all go ch13, type of thing. The test is just a guide--that's why my case is harder--the means test is really no issue at all, but you have to be ready to support your numbers at any point in the process. All the way through to closure. And, with me being so #%^*$&* RICH, I'd likely get audited and everything.




Great.


Oh, last thing: I had suspected that this would not be the attorney I retain, if I do so. This was Mr. Right Now. I could not get in to see Mr. Right until the 30th --the latter was recommended by an atty friend of the family that doesn't do bk...he also did one of my uncle's bk's (other side of the family) so, I have a feeling he will be a LOT more experienced.

Plus this guy made a lot of assumptions. First on all the financial stuff ...then he was walking through his questionnaire with me and on "marital status" he had already written in "divorced" and asked me about my divorce date before he learned that I never married. Don't like assumptions one little bit--it just shows that the person makes a habit of relying on prior knowledge rather than verification.

Anyway, sorry so long. I thought I would put it ALL out there as, I'm sure something is new and can help someone else.

[Naomi]

My income is too high (after my recent pay increase, $12k/yr over!) and my debt too low. HAHAHAHAHAHA! okay, seriously, he said that my dischargeable debt of $13500 -something was too low.

I'll admit it...when I read $13,500...I thought - is that all, really? I would probably not even be thinking about filing over that amount.
I have a balance of $16,500 on just 1 credit card. All together about $32,000 in cc debt + $11,000 heloc.
I am not working right now so we are about $10,000 below the medium of $31,000 (6 months).

I don't think we'll ever be able to pay off the debt at the rate we're going which is why we'll be filing in Jan or Feb.

But, seems like it shouldn't be that hard for you to get out of it w/out filing bk?

[Bex]

But, seems like it shouldn't be that hard for you to get out of it w/out filing bk?

I'm going to find out. I'm going to have my Dad help me work up several scenarios, how they affect day to day life (what has to be cut out--for example, we don't really have "entertainment" as it is and I let the cable go over 2 years ago--there's not much left in that category to cut!) & how long to pay off:

Minimum Payments
Consolidation Loan (the only lender in the world with ANY incentive to finance me is US Bank and, while they have not been reporting neg on me, they know my patterns and I believe this is highly unlikely)
Ch 13
Ch 7
Suicide
New Identity



A couple of other factors influence my decision:

As I think I've mentioned, my health has been declining rapidly over the past few years--I've had 2 surgeries in 5 years (ruptured disc and diseased gall bladder) ...I have (as most people do, when they are 10 or so years older than me) several other discs in my back that are in bad shape and cause me to be in chronic pain. I have Graves Disease (which I always kind of forget about because it doesn't debilitate me) but it is an autoimmune disease and that, combined with this money stress is causing me all manner of problems--I have to find a solution that gives me some peace and fast or I will probably end up disabled (and unable to contribute my ginormous monthly tax obigation for the greatern good!!) I have a lot of deferred medical care that is going to have to be addressed, one way or another. I am insured, just not very well, paying the debt service first ($700/mo minimum, all told), there is never enough left over for copays, much less labs!

My son is over 16 - I will lose the Earned Income tax credit shortly (my friend with 3 teenagers says age 17 but I thought 18--will ask Dad tonight)...AND he's college bound. I have no savings for him. I would like to be able to contribute, at least in an emergency, if not to monthly expenses. He already knows that, without help from the grandparents, he is unlikely to get a car or be able to drive. He plays football and competes on the academic team, so he would have a hard time working to contribute to the cause--the issue is not closed, but he has no time to work right now.

My car is 15 years old...my a/c unit about the same age...my furnace is 37, my house is 42. I have $0 emergency funds...thank Bob my job is stable (but won't be if I can't get my medical issues under control) or I would have chosen #5 long ago



As I see it, it's just a matter of time. But maybe something's wrong with my vision??? HAHA--who would know, I haven't had an eye exam in over 8 years--and I have Grave's Opthalmopathy!

I don't know. I really don't get it--do you wait until you are bleeding from every orifice to visit the doctor? I honestly was so proud of myself for facing the facts and making moves to take care of things and improve my future, but is it really premature?

Oh, fwiw, I'm not sure if I made it clear that $13500 is only the credit cards and some hospital/physical therapy bills. There is an additional $5k in orthodontics. There is $17k in student loans.

"Total unsecured, non-priority debt": ~ $35k

Pleasepleaseplease give me opinions, people?! And I know that some of you are 6 jillion times worse off NOW, but you probably wished you had started thinking about bk earlier--how much earlier???

[doingpoorly]

If I were you I think that I would analyze my expenses and see how much you really spend in each category. I would beef up medical insurance and hsa deposits to match your true needs. Your health has seriously been neglected. I have graves as well and regular exams are a definite necessity..you must take care of yourself.
Once a true picture of your finances are in hand you can then look at your situation and decide if a snowball would work or if it is just a dream. I suspect that if you really look your true expenses will be far greater than you estimated and you may actually better qualify for a ch 7.

Oh, and the tax credit ends at age 17 not 18. I know. Ouch, I was expecting it till age 18. Oh well.

If your situation warrants a ch 7 I think you would be better off doing it before your child becomes a non-dependent and your household is reduced by one member. The more in your household the more your income can be, so be aware of that if you decide to try snowballing for a couple of years and then find that you have to go the bk route anyway.

I wish I would have made better decisions long ago and maybe I wouldn't be in this position but I didn't and things are what they are. Now I just have to make the best decision for my situation now. I wish you the best in deciding what is best for your situation.

[OhioFiler]

Suicide is not an option.

[Bex]

If I were you I think that I would analyze my expenses and see how much you really spend in each category. I would beef up medical insurance and hsa deposits to match your true needs. Your health has seriously been neglected. I have graves as well and regular exams are a definite necessity..you must take care of yourself.
Once a true picture of your finances are in hand you can then look at your situation and decide if a snowball would work or if it is just a dream. I suspect that if you really look your true expenses will be far greater than you estimated and you may actually better qualify for a ch 7.

Thanks for this, I definitely needed the reality check. The attorney didn't say no, he just said my case would endure extreme scrutiny --he also said fill this out and bring me money, but that goes without saying! So if I represent everything truthfully and accurately and everything is "reasonable and necessary" and the picture still fits, I don't see any issue. Maybe the median is more accurate for 2 adults than for parent and child--I don't know. But I'm going to find out.

Suicide is not an option.

No, not a good one, but I was getting tired of having so few choices! Okay, replace it with "run away and join the circus"

[LuciluS]

Graves Disease? You need to see an Opthamologist ASAP for an eye exam as the disease can cause you to lose your eye sight and you need a Complete Physical soon! You have insurance, do it. I know you have co-pays which could be up to $35.00 for a specialist, but do you want to be alive for your son? Having one ruptured disk usually causes other spinal ailments.

I know because I am 100% disabled on severe cervical/lumbar degenerative disk and joint disease. When left untreated, like I did with my lumbar, leads to permanent nerve damage which I have in my left leg/foot. My toes don't move on the left foot. I'm now inoperable on my lower back & have a Spinal Cord Stimulator implanted in my back.

You are gambling with your health and the odds are against you since you've waited so long to seek treatment. I know the medical bills can stack up as they have for us since 2005. I've had 8 surgeries since 5/1/05 & dh had stents placed in 8/05, 5 bypass surgery 2/07 & pacemaker implant in 7/07. He missed 7 1/2 mths of work due to DOT regulations in 2007. We should have sucked it up and filed in early 2008, but hindsight is 20/20.

I hope you will keep your appointment with the BK Attorney on 7/30. It is always good to get other opinions. Scrutiny by the TT is probably accurate being over the median. Documentation is Receipts not the Check or the transaction from your Bank Statement. I hope you've kept utility bills, medical bills, etc.

Although, we met with our BK Attorney late last Sept., it wasn't until my 2nd meeting with him that he mentioned I would need receipts. He said 6 months previous would suffice. I have tons of receipts as dh is a truck driver 6 days a week & spends a lot on the road.

Start now to keep every receipt. I circle the date & name & mark it food, gas, household items, home maintenance etc. You maybe able to get away with your bank statement on Utility and cell phone bills. Heres something to look at:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104696,00.html

After you've gone to your State/County website, go back to the above website and scroll down to the:

Local Standards: Transportation
National Standards: Food, Clothing and Other Items
National Standards: Out-of-Pocket Health Care

These 4 lists will help you get a 'feel' for the standards of Bk.

[Bex]

Now I know the guy I saw Thursday is not my guy--he's using median income from like 4 updates ago--it's gone up twice since the number he gave me:

http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/meanstesting.htm

the income he was using was effective 2/08 to 10/08. Besides which, he was acting like my 22A was all jacked up because of this ("then we have that extra $2k over median to account for") when the only factor the median plays on that form is the initial comparison--under or over--the rest of the means test has nothing to do with the median.

Added to which he made it clear that bk doesn't live and die by the median --if you make way under but only pay $5/mo for debt service, the court will probably say no. I guess that's the "totality of circumstances" deal.

Anyway, he made a big deal about my numbers being wrong when they weren't and it doesn't matter anyway.

I hope you will keep your appointment with the BK Attorney on 7/30. It is always good to get other opinions. Scrutiny by the TT is probably accurate being over the median. Documentation is Receipts not the Check or the transaction from your Bank Statement. I hope you've kept utility bills, medical bills, etc.

Oh I absolutely will--yah, the more I look at real numbers, I'm pretty sure I have a Chapter 7 but filing is probably unadvisable for 6 mos to a year as I will have to both change my spending (turn the tables the way they're *supposed* to be and take care of body, house, dogs, car that have been neglected for credit cards) and maintain good documentation.

Well, the good thing is, I had always been calculating with my latest pay increase--that gives me 11 mos to work with it as is before another cost-of-living hits then books. And the changing of my spending has to be done no matter what the outcome--I have to manage my money and my health and these are non-negotiable and really have no relation to the eventual disposition of this debt, whatever that may be.

Another year of money stress on the body...but maybe with an end in sight, it will be more bearable.

Thx again 4 the input, I'm sure no matter what unfolds, I will have a jillion more questions!