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The bottom of housing market is 7 years away-at least.

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    The bottom of housing market is 7 years away-at least.

    I've heard almost weekly discussion about how the market is finally turning around. I don't believe it.

    Some are more pessimistic of course, and they have every reason to be.

    In the last 2-3 years, over 3 million foreclosures have occured. More than 2 million more are expected by the end of this year, and that accounts for the efforts of government intervention through the Obama administrations housing plans.

    One of the cornerstones of the Obama plans has banks moving borrowers to an interest-only payment with a course of 5 years. After that, it is business as usual and rates will begin to increase. Average homes purchased in the last few years are under water by 40% or so, and still headed south. I do not believe the market will recover enough in 5 years time, in terms of equity, for most borrowers to be able to refinance. Banks, burned by their own mistakes THIS time around, will be far less likely to deal in 5 years. Anyway, who of those borrowers will have leverage in terms of savings and/or good credit scores in that amount of time? Probably not many.

    Those foreclosures I mentioned earlier play a key factor in this. As many as 45% of the foreclosures that have already occurred have not yet been placed back into the open market by banks. This is called "shadow inventory" and it is a frightening spectacle to just about anyone connected to real estate through ownership, debt, or who is part of the business. No one knows for sure, but industry trade groups believe the number is as high as 1.4million properties. These are being held off the market to influence the short term economy, propping up housing prices, if only slightly. It smacks of pure manipulation to benefit the banks, but that's not surprising, I suppose.

    One day all of those properties will HAVE to return to the market.

    Imagine what would occur if the banks are taken over by government and these properties are suddenly dumped onto the open market. Or if the banks were forced to offer them for sale for any number of other reasons. The market, already decimated, would freefall even further, though that seems impossible. Of course, very few predicted our current ongoing disaster.

    Now, on top of all this, there is another more telling sign that all is not nearly as well as even the pessimists believe. Foreclosures are taking longer. Much longer in some areas.

    I visited a mortgage broker's board earlier today that discussed the reasons for this. When a bank forecloses or does a DiL or anything else to take over a home, they become responsible for fees associated with that property. In the past, there were relatively few homes that were a major concern and they moved into the hands of private investors or were resold to consumers pretty quickly. Not so anymore.

    The fees from all those homes add up dramatically. In previous years, the neighbors might complain if a place got overgrown or a little rundown between owners, but generally not much was done. In the end we all knew it would be okay.

    These days, HOA's and municipalities are levying fines and suits against the foreclosing lender. And they are winning. Lots. So, a wise lender would pay to maintain these properties and pay the HOA fees, right? Maybe they did at first, but not anymore.

    Now, it appears lenders are simply letting residents stay in those homes longer and longer rent-free. The brokers board pointed to a few conversations their members took part in with lender representatives that indicated this is a growing trend. I do not believe it is widespread yet, but it probably will become more common each passing month. In this fashion, the homeownner, unforeclosed, remains on the hook for everything from lawn mowing to insurance, HOA fees, and repairs. Of course we all have heard horror stories of wrecked foreclosure homes, but that seemingly is occurring less often, or it affects a small enough percentage of homes that this is a more profitable way for lenders to proceed.

    At some point, the banks WILL have to act on foreclosure for these properties too, and they will only add weight to the dread zeppelin that hangs over all of our heads.

    So:

    5 years interest-free for many modified loans that mostly won't be in position for another mod. (And how sick will the taxpayers be THEN of housing problems and bailouts? Don't hold your breath for more "solutions" if the problem hasn't been solved already)

    Probably 3-4 years of unsold inventory in our CURRENT real estate market.

    As many as 1.7 million homes in "shadow inventory" by the end of this year, representing further years of inventory for the open market.

    Homeowners who are not paying now, but may not have foreclosure proceedings instituted for years.

    I think the biggest part of this flight to doom is ahead of us, not by months, but by years.

    For example, I have not paid on my mortgage for 7 months now. The lender has made no move to foreclose. Acceleration letter was send on time, but that is a legal requirement. I know it could happen at any moment, and have plans for that eventuality, but this is a theme that seems more and more prevalent, even here on the BK Forum.

    Best wishes, and good luck to all of us!

    We are going to need it.
    Last edited by DeadManCrawling; 05-26-2009, 07:05 PM.
    11-20-09-- Filed Chapter 7
    12-23-09-- 341 Meeting-Early Christmas Gift?
    3-9-10--Discharged

    #2
    How depressing! Our home's value has dropped about $30K in the last 4 years and I was happy to find that we only have about -$7K in equity now. But I too fear that we haven't found the bottom yet and no one is certain how long it will be until we get there. While we were deciding on whether to file ch 7 or ch 13, our attorny advised us to NEVER reaffirm our mortgage loan and HELOC. That way if we loose our job or jobs, we can just walk away from the house if need be. And...if the values continue to fall...it may be a wise decision somewhere down the road...
    CH13 filed 5/21/09; 341 6/17/09; confirmed 7/14/09]
    Discharged: 7/25/12

    Comment


      #3
      That is a good point about shadow inventory.

      But I think the worst is probably behind us as far as true depreciation (in most areas), from here it is simply going to be stagflation for a while. Also, it depends on market segment and willingness to lend. I think higher priced homes, above $300,000 (in most areas) are still vulnerable, but under that price range, the decline has probably stabilized. A mortgage broker I spoke to also mentioned that we are working our way through the $1 Trillion that is keeping interest rates artificially low, once that govt. money goes away, rates will start being more market driven and go up. I still think that now is probably the best time to buy because of interest rates, and the first time tax rebate, that you can weather any incremental depreciation.

      Comment


        #4
        inland empire

        i live in an area of So cal Inland Empire that saw rapid growth from 2000-2008 before the music stopped. there are builders here that are stuck with inventory they could not sell. At the top they were asking close to $1m for some of the larger homes. Now they are trying to get out at any cost. Just in my zip code, Realty Trak reports more than $1,300 forclosures, and Riverside has 4 other zip codes. I check Realty Trak weekly to see which of my neighbors is defaulting, and i see something every week. Homes are still depreciating and quickly. A model like mine that sold in 2005 for $850K is now bank owned and has been listed for $350K by the bank. i know several neighbors who paid over $800k, and they are messing their pants over this. Many of us have invested our whole life in these places. I think the market is still headed down, at least in certain areas. there is just too much inventory.
        Stopped Paying CC's 2/2009. Retained Attorney 1/10/2010 Filed 1/23/2010. Discharged 5/19/10 $187K CC, $240K 2nd,$417K 1st, No asset Ch-7

        Comment


          #5
          We are far from being out of the woods. I don't really expect the economy to recover for 5-10 years and that is being optimistic especially in light of the underfunded entitlement programs. Massive new taxes could slow economic growth further and possibly even lead to depression like events still. The housing market is one of the markets that generally leads us out of economic troubled times.
          May 31st, 2007: Petition Filed by my lawyer
          July 2nd, 2007: 341 Meeting Held
          September 4th, 2007: Discharged and Closed.

          Comment


            #6
            What do you all think the market will be like in 2.5 years?

            I would really like to buy a house then.

            I am worried that credit is going to be so tight by then. Do you think underwriting for FHA loans will become more strict, such as increased down payments, etc?

            At least now most of the homes around here don't require a Jumbo loan.

            California sucks ( but I love the weather!)

            Comment


              #7
              I can see businesses shying away from hiring people. When companies lay people off, their unemployment rates rise and they continue to stay high for years.

              The issues with Social Security and Medicare are in my opinion natonal disgraces. Both programs run deeply in the black but the Federal government have operated those plans as long range ponzi schemes. When people come to realize the money they have put into these plans never got to either plan, I can forsee wide spread panic.

              I don't think we have seen the worse, the worst is yet to come.
              Golden Jubilee was a year-long celebration held every 50 years in which all bondmen were freed, mortgaged lands were restored to the original owners, and land was left fallow: Lev. 25:8-17

              Comment


                #8
                Business as usual. Push the problems into the future. This has been Congress' (and Presidential) solution to everything.

                I agree totally with the direction of DMC's post and the underlying shadow inventory. Inventory is always what kills the market. This is an incredible "second" bubble that is inflating. I predicted this first bubble back in 2003. I would tell my friends not to get those 5YR Interest Only ARMs. While I'm no saint in this matter (I did put down 5%), I was hit worse by property taxes and insurance which both doubled for me!

                "Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." (Mark Twain)
                Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

                Any advice provided is not legal advice, but simply the musings of a fellow bankrupt.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Good points all around. And I agree with HHM about now being a great time to buy. Any time for the next 2-3 years will probably be good.

                  The loss in equity has led to problems of its own. I present you a married couple, husband has the house in his name, no debt of any substance shared with the wife. Why wouldn't they simply walk away from that house that took all their equity and life savings with it and rebuild in her credit? I've heard moral and ethical questions raised about this scenario, but more people are doing this all the time. And if we want to go down that moral path, there are plenty of people to blame across the board, from borrowers to brokers to investors, appraisers, governement. Nearly every link in the chain bears some responsibility in many cases. Not all, certainly, but many.

                  I personally plan to purchase a home in the next year or so. I have not yet filed BK and may not for 2-3 years. MY initial plan was to do so last year, but circumstances have not permitted.

                  Since my lender has not foreclosed or made any move to do so, I am saving 2-3k per month every month. Add that onto what I already had in exempt assets, and we can already afford an inexpensive home, paid in full, with cash.

                  Each month that passes, our options get better because we save more and the market disaster spills wider, placing more homes in our reach.

                  In our case, due to a medical surprise and loss of income related to it, we are unable to afford our current place. I feel no qualms about this, though I wish it could be different.

                  The lowest end of homes here is now about 20k, less than most new cars. We are currently looking in the 40-50k range and may be able to negotiate a lower price on something that is currently on the market at 60 or so. These homes were DOUBLE those prices 2 years ago. They aren't as nice as what we are in now, rent-free, but none of this has been nice to anyone, and you won't hear a complaint from us. A fully paid roof over our head is well worth almost any price at this point.

                  This may be something some of you are able to do as well. Certainly it is one more option.

                  Thanks for the ongoing discussion!
                  11-20-09-- Filed Chapter 7
                  12-23-09-- 341 Meeting-Early Christmas Gift?
                  3-9-10--Discharged

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I also didn't pay my mortgage for 4 months. I never received a single phone call about it. This is mainly due to the banks waiting for the Obama plan to be announced. Now they are finally starting to getting details in order about the plan and have begun escalating foreclosures on homes.

                    The Obama plan doesn't move to a interest only payment. It moves interest only payments to a principle, interest, and escrow payment that is equal to 31% of ones income. It also modifies fixed loans in the same fashion.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Not to slight those homeowners or sellers, etc. affected, but in 2 years time, do you think first time home buyers will have a good shot at a decent rate for getting their first home? My attorney told me 2 years after filing, unless you screw up again, you can get a decent mortgage or car loan. Once some time passes, I'd love to buy a starter home. Something just big enough for the family, but affordable. Tired of renting houses and living in apartments. Wonder if credit will be too hard to get even on a 1st time homeowner.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Here is another possible explanation for some of the delays.

                        Investors sued last winter for damages and protection from losses due to Countrywide modifying mortgages. Though there was agreement made with Attorneys General in several states, Countrywide made the settlement without consulting investors.

                        Terms of investment agree that Countrywide CAN modify home loans at their discretion. BUT, they must then pay the investor off with full principal and accrued interest. This could get VERY expensive.


                        Here is the suit:



                        I doubt BoA/Countrywide could withstand losses in the numbers implied by modifying as many as 400 thousand mortgages.

                        If you refi'd between 2004 and 2007, there is a VERY good chance your loan is listed here, in one of the securitized packages that were sold. You won't be able to see it directly, but you can get a pretty good idea by looking at the codes in the pdf legal document.

                        Now, with all these loans being in limbo legally, it would seem:

                        Countrywide would be less inclined to move quickly on foreclosure OR modification.

                        If the investors win, and Countrywide has modified, they or BoA will be on the hook for FAR FAR more than if the customer had defaulted and foreclosed int he course of business.

                        If the investors lose, Countrywide then has the option to move on foreclosue OR modification, free from monetary constraints. This scenario screws the investors. Some would say deservedly, I make no such judgement. For all I know, I may BE an investor through a stock fund or 401k.

                        Interesting, I thought, and I could be totally wrong, partially wrong or a mix of both. One more possible explanation for certain things, though.
                        11-20-09-- Filed Chapter 7
                        12-23-09-- 341 Meeting-Early Christmas Gift?
                        3-9-10--Discharged

                        Comment

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