third time is a charm...

[hooloovoo]

Had my third attorney meeting and this guy I think is my best bet. Of course he's also the one that requires the most cash up front...

Guy #1 charges $3400 for chapter 13 and required a $200 retainer plus filing fees with the remainder paid in the plan. I did not really like this guy, he was impersonal and rushed and I got the feeling their firm was all about quickly getting your case over and collecting their money.

Guy #2 charges $3800 and required a $600 retainer plus filing fees. I liked him, but not really as a lawyer. He was a bit too laid back, got off on unrelated tangents, was unsure about some legal aspects, and further wouldn't actually be representing me since he has a conflict of interest.

Guy #3 was better. He took his time with me, but was not overly laid back. He got the info, but didn't rapid fire pump me for info. He understood my position and why I was there. He charges $3500 but requires a $1,000 retainer plus filing fee. But, he seemed to know what he was doing the most. He told me they could probably get me in a chapter 7, but looking at my stats (single, high income, driving a BMW) I'd be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb and you could bet they'd challenge everything they could.

He said in this district they really scrutinize chapter 7 plans but not that much on chapter 13, and he thinks they could probably get me a household size of 4 due to this. He also thinks that given that, there's a good chance they can get a resonable means test result that will give me a negative monthly cash flow, and that in this district when that happens you can get a 36 month plan even if you are over median income. He also said in his experience the trustee does not really start asking a lot of questions if your plan pays back at least 10% of your debts. This guy actually seems to know what the courts around here do and how to work with it. He also said keeping or getting rid of my car is kind of a wash, that basically I can get out of it but that extra car payment money will go towards the payment plan anyway. So essentially, I'm stuck with my car payment, it's just a matter of whether it goes towards the car or towards the credit cards...

So, still hoping I can unload my car and get out of this, but if not I feel pretty comfortable with this one.

[StartingOver08]

He sounds very experienced in the ways of your particular district. IMHO that is what you are paying for - the attorney's knowledge of not only the BK law - but how it works SPECIFICALLY in your case. It is well worth the extra money up front to get the right attorney.

[cyn5]

[QUOTE=hooloovoo;256817]
He told me they could probably get me in a chapter 7, but looking at my stats (single, high income, driving a BMW) I'd be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb and you could bet they'd challenge everything they could.
QUOTE]
He sounds like he knows what he is talking about! I am curious though, if he could get you into a ch 7, why not do that? Is he saying the trustee will scrutinize everything or your creditors will try to object? I am sorry, but I have seen regular gas guzzler american cars cost as much as a foreign cars like bmw! We have a toyota (purchase) and a bmw that is a lease and they are both within about $100 of each other payment wise. And since you have to have a car most likely and the payment will help you with your means test, I agree...keep the car if you can afford it. Does he think you will be looked at more closely because you would be an above means ch 7? Seems like a lot of people here on this forum have been successful with their above means ch 7.

[hooloovoo]

He sounds like he knows what he is talking about! I am curious though, if he could get you into a ch 7, why not do that? Is he saying the trustee will scrutinize everything or your creditors will try to object? I am sorry, but I have seen regular gas guzzler american cars cost as much as a foreign cars like bmw! We have a toyota (purchase) and a bmw that is a lease and they are both within about $100 of each other payment wise. And since you have to have a car most likely and the payment will help you with your means test, I agree...keep the car if you can afford it. Does he think you will be looked at more closely because you would be an above means ch 7? Seems like a lot of people here on this forum have been successful with their above means ch 7.

Yeah I know, the payment on my bmw is $25 a month more than my ex wife's payment on a 3 year old Ford Freestyle... But it's the status that causes them to do a double take. I mean really, my payment is a whopping $50 above the amount they give you in the means test... But, when they glance at my filing and see that I'm single, made $78,000 last year, drive a BMW and have 'only' $40,000 in debt they're going to fire off red flags left and right at a chapter 7. In reality, my income last year included bonuses I no longer get. I pay $1,100 a month in child support. My credit card rates got jacked up. If you look at my actual budget you'd see that after my core monthly living expenses my disposable monthly income is about $1,000. My credit card minimums are also $1,000. Hence, I have no money. But on the surface I come off as someone trying to take the easy way out. I mean every lawyer I met with, when I tell them how much I actually spend each month on things, has expressed surprise that I'm not really living outside of my means. They too look at my income, debt and car and think oh this guy just spends way too much.

But anyway, his point was that to get me into a chapter 7 he'd have to work some voodoo. Basically for that I'd have to have a family size of 4. This is tricky because I have custody of three kids every other week and I only claim one of them as a dependent. Generally I've been told for household size they mostly look at how many dependents you have. Now in reality, I have the housing expenses of a 4 person household because I need a house that big regardless of how much I have them. I also have clothing expenses for 4. Utilities are iffy, because I don't use as much water, and probably not as much electricity as if I had them full time. Food wise, I need to feed an average of about 2.5 people. So it gets complicated...

He said that if we tried to get me into a chapter seven by claiming a household size of 4 and expenses along with that, they would likely balk and claim I only had a household size of two and then we'd have delays and costs associated with either fighting them or converting to a 13. But, he also said that around here they really try to nail you on chapter 7's to prevent abuse but if you file a chapter 13 plan with at least 10% of your unsecured debt being paid, they just glance over it. He said in his experience that is their informal standard for whether someone is trying to game the system or not, and that the thought if we went with that they would probably not even give my household size a second look.

[JRScott]

You say it included bonuses you no longer get. When did you get the bonuses?

If you could wait 6 months from the last bonus to file you might drop down enough to help your case out some , it's something to perhaps ask him. For Income they take your earnings for 6 months and double it for the means test and schedules.

[cyn5]

I am no expert, but it just sounds like you really should file ch 7. It seems like a lot of the lawyers out there try to push people into ch 13 because they get more money even if they put half of their fee for ch 13 into they repayment plan for 13 (because they know they will get paid first). We have a bmw and the lawyers I talked to didn't even question it because the payment is not that much higher than the allowable you get. I don't think it is a status thing...I think your lawyer is using it as an excuse. And you even have child support payments....seems like even if you claim one of your kids as a dependent (does that really determine household size) that you wouldn't be really over on the means test. I could see if you were 50k over on the means test....but that's just me.

[hooloovoo]

No, the point was that he sees enough red flags that he thinks they'll question a chapter 7 and look for loopholes. And, the only way I'll get into a chapter 7 is to have a household size of 4. If my other stats indicate I can likely pay something back even though a household size of 4 puts me in a chapter 7, in his opinion they'll fight it by saying that having 3 kids 50% of the time is not a household size of 4. And if they fight that they'd probably win.

Anyway, my last bonus was in November of 08. So currently, my 6 month average only includes one. The odds are probably 50/50 that I'll get another one before that drops off.

For the time being though, I'm working on selling my motorcycle and using that cash to get out of my lease. If I do that I'll buy a cheap used car ($5k max) and that will free up about $500 a month for payment and insurance giving me enough money to live on. The added bonus of this is that if bonuses resume I'll get to keep them and build up a safety net, whereas if I file there's a decent chance they would take my bonuses.