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    Is this Fraud?

    We are sitting here waiting to file chapter 7. We qualify because we are under the median income. We own our house but the payments are too high for us to live here comfortably and we have used CC's as a crutch for 10 years, periodically refinancing our debt with home equity. We live with no luxury items whatsoever and our house isn't even that big. But we have 3 kids and we really want a simple life living on my husband's income.

    Now the house payment is high and the CC's are high again and we have no home equity left to refinance (thankfully). We are considering chapter 7 to surrender the house and the 20k in CC that we have now. And then move into a much smaller place and rent for $700 per month less than what our mortgage is here.

    I am also considering Debt Settlement that will cost us $11k and Short Sale. I know that these debts might come back to haunt us with 1099. But if we can afford to do debt settlement is it a better option? Can I better use the $11k that I would have paid to debt settlement to pay down our student loans?

    We have not waited until the last minute, if anything I feel like we might be jumping the gun. We just missed our first mortgage payment and we have decided not to pay our cc's anymore. We sold our newer car and bought another older one for $3500.00. This left us with some cash because the car had also been paid off with a home equity loan.

    My husband has taken a substantial pay cut and we don't know how long it will last. We have cash on hand for our living expenses for now and it's too much to file Bk without spending it. Our only expenses will be living expenses and moving expenses but we are saving up for those and hoping to file BK before we have to move. But we aren't supposed to have the money so do we have to move first and then file?

    Does it actually make more sense to wait a year or another six months before we file? Until we are really at our wits end and the house is almost to auction? What if I could transfer all of the money that I am paying to CC's and mortgage now toward my student loan debts that won't be erased by the BK. Will the trustee overturn those payments?

    Is it fraud to pay down student loans with money that you would have paid to your mortgage?

    #2
    If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

    Comment


      #3
      If a BK will cause you no problems with job, etc. FILE

      If it is a problem, you can do debt settlement, but do it on your own. The taxes paid on the forgiven debt, (if insolvent,there is none) will be minimal on the 20,000. You can probably settle it for 5 grand.

      The house is a different story. No taxes will be paid on the forgiven debt, but they might come after you for the deficiency. A short sale would be better. Who is the lender?

      I posted as an answer to a post what a friend of mine did in debt settlement on her own. I am going to try to find it and put it as a new thread since it seems like some people are considering it.

      IMO, BK is the best option if you can do it, gives you a fresh start.

      Comment


        #4
        Is a trustee going to ask for purchase receipts to see what we spent our money on for the next 4-6 months before we file? And ask what we bought if we didn't pay our mortgage and our CC bills? We do intend to pay the attorney up front and if my husband's job doesn't pick up this is a mute issue...but if it does, we still want to change our lifestyle.
        Thank you for the encouragement. I like your signature a lot :o)

        Comment


          #5
          Our lender is GMAC.

          I don't really know if a BK will cause problems with jobs. How does one learn this?

          Comment


            #6
            Debt settlement is a waste of time in your circumstances. If you can file now and doing so will be a benefit, there really is no further benefit by waiting. Just File.
            Last edited by HHM; 01-28-2009, 06:56 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              I have read that we also have to wait to recieve our tax return and spend it as well before we file. Will the trustee ask what we spent our tax return on? This seems to be my fear of filing.

              Comment


                #8
                "Use the money you're paying to credit cards to take care of back taxes due. Those are a priority creditor and you won't have any preference issues paying those since, they'll survive bk."

                I found this posted on another thread. Are student loans considered a priority creditor as well and are they exempted from preference issues?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by bk12 View Post
                  "Use the money you're paying to credit cards to take care of back taxes due. Those are a priority creditor and you won't have any preference issues paying those since, they'll survive bk."

                  I found this posted on another thread. Are student loans considered a priority creditor as well and are they exempted from preference issues?
                  Edit: let me rephrase my response. Student loans would be considered a priority creditor but they are not free from preference issues, especially if you file 13. Taxes, for example, would be considered a higher priority than student loans, as would child support. I guess you could call them medium priority. They typically would be ahead of credit card debt but below child support.
                  Last edited by Dst1; 01-28-2009, 08:42 PM.
                  So the poor debtor, seeing naught around him
                  Yet feels the narrow limits that impound him
                  Grieves at his debt and studies to evade it
                  And finds at last he might as well have paid it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Student loans ARE NOT priority creditors under any part of the BK code. They are simply non-dischargeable. So to answer your questions, NO, you cannot pay down your student loans.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by HHM View Post
                      Student loans ARE NOT priority creditors under any part of the BK code. They are simply non-dischargeable. So to answer your questions, NO, you cannot pay down your student loans.
                      I don't want to get into the middle of a fight between lawyers but this law firm is publicly advising their clients to do otherwise.



                      Under the heading, "What, if any, debts should I pay prior to filing a Chapter 7 bankruptcy?"
                      So the poor debtor, seeing naught around him
                      Yet feels the narrow limits that impound him
                      Grieves at his debt and studies to evade it
                      And finds at last he might as well have paid it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You can continue to pay them, you just can't "over pay" them without incurring a "preference" issue.

                        That website is referring to "priority" in the normal sense, meaning "importance". They are not referring to priority in the "bankruptcy legal" sense.

                        The OP, as I understand it, was asking whether he can take his mortgage payment (which he was going to stop making) and devout it to his student loans before filing BK. THe answer to that question is no (or to hedge a bit, its risky because your student loans, for purposes of BK is a general unsecured creditor...thus, the trustee can demand that money back from the student loan co. Thus, it would be a waste of money to use those extra funds to "over pay" your student loans).
                        Last edited by HHM; 01-29-2009, 10:14 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thank you. This is the answer I was looking for.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Isn't the lookback window for a preference 90 days?
                            So after that the student loan payments are safe, correct?
                            filed chapter 13..confirmed...converted to chapter 7...DISCHARGED!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by HHM View Post
                              You can continue to pay them, you just can't "over pay" them without incurring a "preference" issue.

                              That website is referring to "priority" in the normal sense, meaning "importance". They are not referring to priority on the "bankruptcy legal" sense.

                              The OP, as I understand it, was asking whether he can take his mortgage payment (which he was going to stop making) and devout it to his student loans before filing BK. THe answer to that question is no (or to hedge a bit, its risky because your student loans, for purposes of BK is a general unsecured creditor...thus, the trustee can demand that money back from the student loan co. Thus, it would be a waste of money to use those extra funds to "over pay" your student loans).
                              Ah, I see what you are saying. Gotcha.

                              I am curious. Would it make any difference in the priority (bk sense) if the loan was held by the government (like the DOE) rather than a private firm? What I am curious about is whether priority (bk sense) is established based upon the class of debt or based upon who holds the debt.
                              So the poor debtor, seeing naught around him
                              Yet feels the narrow limits that impound him
                              Grieves at his debt and studies to evade it
                              And finds at last he might as well have paid it.

                              Comment

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