Need Help!!! 2 Attorneys with 2 different answers

[tools2teach]

I have consulted with 2 attorneys. I have done the homework packet for both and I am getting from attorney #1 that i am boderline chapter 7 and attoryney #2 says I am not even close to a chapter 7. So far I have paid out $1000 for the 2 attorneys. I want to file chapter 7 badly, i am willing to do whatever i can to get us over the hump. We are current on all our bill and mortgage. We could wait a maximum of 2 years which is when our mortgage adjust if we needed to. It seems like attorney #1 took the time to crunch numbers, but attorney #2 has over 28 years of experience. My question is

Do I go with attoryney #1 who says she might be able to get us over the hump or #2 attorney who says don't even try. "you make too much"???

If I had 1 or 2 years to file, what do I need to do to get us over the hump. ex. Do charge up more debt, but another car, claim 0 on my income tax??? Do I try to overwhelm myself in debt to qualify for chapter 7?

[albacore44]

not sure where your located, i'm in so cal, but I consulted my 1st attorney 30 years bK only specialist. he said ch 13 due to my income. after i left his office, i did more reschearch, re-crunched my numbers, took the online means test, and I think i qualify.i'm going to see another att . Imho, i think some atty's will try to push what they consider borderline cases into a 13 because they don't want to fight with a trustee, because under the new laws the trustee's are under increased pressure from the higher courts to get more 13's. i'm not an expert but thats what i have read on some lawyers websites.

[tools2teach]

Thanks for the reponse. I am located in Orange County, California. If you find a good attorney let me know.

This has been so fustrating.....a attorney with 30 yrs of experience who gave me a 99.9% chance of chapter 7 during our consultation says now that i am not even close. I already wasted $500 on this guy for not even trying. The other attorney crunched the numbers and gave me a solid number which $390.92 above the means test.. I guess i will be sticking to the attorney with only a years experience, at least she is trying.

Does anyone know what I need to do to make it a chapter 7? I am even considering telling wife to take leave of absense for several months since she doesn't get paid much anyways.

[keepmine]

You'll need to lower your income or, increase your expenses.
I'd suggest your wife quit her job .

[allavdj]

BK attorneys typically make more off a 13...something to bear in mind. One of the offices I visited (they had 20+ years of experience) told me I needed to do a 13 and I only bring home about 22k a year. I was like....bwhaa? Are you serious? Then I left and didn't go back there again.

[albacore44]

Good info from an attornets website

Bankruptcy Overview
Chapter 7 Bankruptcy



Representing individuals and businesses in bankruptcy filings throughout the Inland Empire area of Southern California, including Riverside, San Bernardino, Redlands, Colton, Lake Arrowhead, Running Springs, Big Bear, Rancho Cucamonga, Fontana, Highland, High Desert, and Victorville.

A Chapter 7 proceeding is what persons generally mean when they say "bankruptcy." It liquidates or wipes out your personal liability on debts or obligations, with certain exceptions, primarily recent tax debts, child and spousal support. However, older tax debts are frequently dischargeable. If tax obligations are part of your problem, also see Tax Problems.

Eliminating Debt
When you file a Chapter 7 bankruptcy (or any bankruptcy) the court issues an Automatic Stay, which essentially means that upon filing the petition, creditors, including the IRS, collection agents and attorneys, etc, are restrained from trying to collect their debts. Simply put, they cannot send you insulting or threatening collection letters, call you on the phone, sue, garnish your wages, repossess a car, foreclose on your home, or do any other act to collect on the debt. If your wages are already being garnished, the garnishment must stop, and in many cases you can recover all the money taken from your wages within the 90 days prior to the filing of your case. If a creditor is foolish enough to ignore the restraining order, you may bring a contempt of court action against the creditor not only to make him stop, but also for the court to fine him, for costs and fees, and for damages caused by the violation of the automatic stay. Creditors are very well aware of the risks and will not try it if you are represented by competent counsel.

Personal Property You Can Keep
In regards to property you may retain in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, there are currently two sets of exemptions, which are simply lists of different types of property and the value in each category, that the law says you can keep. We choose the most beneficial to you, based on the value and type of property you own. Further, under most circumstances, there is nothing wrong morally or legally from converting non-exempt property into exempt property, prior to filing your case, provided it is done correctly, done in accordance with the law, and properly perfected. If not done correctly, it can result in a loss of the property, and in extreme cases, can result in the denial of your discharge, so you need seasoned and experienced counsel in making these decisions.

Both sets of exemptions cover things like, clothing, jewelry, furnishings, automobiles, equipment used in trade or business, etc, in varying amounts, but one of the major differences is in the treatment of equity in your residence. One set provides that a married couple may have $75,000 in net equity in your home (in some cases $150,000 depending on age and income) after deducting all encumbrances) while the other set doesn't provide specifically for equity in a residence, but provides for a catch all exemption which allows an additional $21,825.00 exemption in anything you choose, whether it is money in the bank, cash in your pocket, equity in real property etc.

Reaffirming Debts For Property You Want To Keep
If you have debts secured by specific property, such as a car, house, furniture etc., which you want to keep, you can reaffirm the debt and/or continue making the regular payments, or perhaps we can negotiate new payment terms, lower interest, or extend the past due payments.

Liens
There is a unique type of security interest which deserves a brief discussion in the Chapter 7 bankruptcy context. It is a non purchase money security interest in household furnishings. Under state law, it is perfectly legal for creditors to take lien rights in certain household furnishings etc, which you already owned, when you obtained the loan from a finance company. However, in a bankruptcy proceeding, these type of liens can usually be voided. Generally, judgment liens (Judicial liens created by the recording of an abstract of judgment with the county recorder) on your residence can also be voided. In other words, the bankruptcy will dissolve the obligation owed, and a lien avoidance motion, will result in a judgment declaring the liens null and void, so that you retain the property without having to pay any part of the debt. Many lawyers who do not specialize in bankruptcy fail to file these motions, so if you have already filed a bankruptcy and ran into trouble, these motions can still be filed until your case is closed.

Property Transfers
Do not, under any circumstances, transfer, sell, give away, give a security interest, pay off or make any substantial payments on any debts, without first consulting a bankruptcy attorney, since such actions could have a very severe and sometimes irreparable effect when a bankruptcy case is filed. Notice I said Bankruptcy attorney, not a general practitioner attorney. The reason for this, is that general practitioner attorneys who try to handle several different major areas of the law are simply learning each time they take another case. Its okay for him, but it is your financial future in his hands, and it is you that will suffer the consequences, not him. A simple example of why you should do nothing until consulting a bankruptcy attorney is where you are entitled to the $21,825.00 exemption, but because you didn't know you could keep it, you repay your parents the $15,000.00 they loaned you earlier to save it from the bankruptcy trustee or creditors. Instantly, and once the bankruptcy case is filed, irreversibly, you have ran afoul of the preference provisions of the bankruptcy code, and the bankruptcy trustee simply sues your parents to recover the $15,000.00, which he uses to pay all creditors a pro rata share. In other words, the $15,000.00 you could have kept if you had been properly represented will now be taken from your parents, and you will get none of it. (The reason for this is that you cannot claim an exemption on property that you voluntarily transferred before filing) The trustee can go back a full year on transfers to relatives, and three months to non-relative non-insiders. Even worse, under some limited circumstances, the court could deny your discharge entirely for making such a transfer.

There are many other pitfalls, and traps for the inexperienced, which can be very damaging, so again, do absolutely nothing, until you have obtained experienced bankruptcy counsel, which by the way, generally cost no more, and many times will charge less, than the inexperienced general practice attorney, who many times adds a little padding to the fee to cover unexpected and unprepared for problems which he is afraid may arise, but which he lacks the experience to anticipate, prepare for, or avoid entirely.

Pre-Filing Planning
It is our belief that since your legal rights are determined and frozen as of the instant of filing the petition, pre petition planning is crucial in obtaining the best possible results. In many cases it is perfectly legal to manipulate your affairs in order to obtain the best result, providing you know what and how to do it properly. Anyone who files a bankruptcy case without being represented by a bankruptcy attorney (not a general practitioner, let alone a paralegal) is exceedingly foolish, is unlikely to obtain the best results, and is taking very substantial risks in not having all debts discharged, having the discharge denied, or revoked as much as a year after the case is over, or losing your home or other property. Keep in mind, that if certain mistakes are made, and they come to light within a year after you receive your bankruptcy discharge, your discharge may be revoked if the court believes your failure to disclose or other such mistakes were intentional. In other words, a year after you thought the case was over, all your debts would be reinstated, and you will have lost the right to file a bankruptcy for six years.

Reopening Bankruptcy Cases To Avoid Liens
Even after your case is closed, in many instances, your case can be reopened for the purpose of filing motions to avoid judgment liens on your residence, in cases where they were not avoided during the pendency of your case due to lack of knowledge of your attorney. It generally takes about 30 days to reopen your case, and another 30 days to avoid the lien.

Some Frequently Asked Questions Regarding Chapter 7 Bankruptcy
Is my employer notified?
No, not in a Chapter 7, however, if you file a chapter 13 and then fail to make the plan payments, your employer may be notified.

Will the government or utility companies discriminate against me if I file bankruptcy?
The bankruptcy code provides that governmental entities cannot discriminate against persons who file bankruptcy, which becomes important and useful in licensing problems. For example, if your drivers license has been revoked due to an uninsured accident, once the liability for damages arising out of the accident has been discharged, you are entitled to obtain a new license, even though the damages arising out of the uninsured accident will be discharged and unpaid. This provision also applies to contractor licenses. Additionally, it prevents utility companies from terminating service for discharged utility bills.

Should I use a paralegal, typing service or financial adviser instead of a bankruptcy attorney to save money?
We are often asked by persons with relatively simple non business cases if they should consider using one of the cut rate typing services, or so called financial advisers, or paralegals, who seem to have sprung up in every town recently. Unfortunately, the get rich quick hucksters who used to limit their get rich quick schemes to real estate, now are giving seminars to anyone willing to buy their books on how to get rich as a paralegal. The problem is that they haven't the slightest idea of what they are doing, they simply fill out the forms with information you provide, and charge $250 to $1,000.00 or so. It is a criminal offense for any non attorney to provide legal advice. To try and get around that, non attorneys say they only type what you tell them, that they are not giving legal advice, and put you in pro per (in other words, representing yourself), which in some cases you aren't even aware of until the first court hearing. Since you are representing yourself, anything and everything that goes wrong is your fault, and your problem, not the typing service or paralegal because they are just typing what you tell them. This office is routinely retained to straighten out problems general practice attorneys get into, let alone typing services and paralegals. Keep in mind that there are no minimal requirements, and anyone can call themselves a paralegal, even you. If you insist on trying to save a little money by using one of these services, please save this web page to your favorites for when you run into problems. However, keep in mind that the fees we charge for fixing botched cases can exceed what we would have charged had we prepared the entire case from the beginning, and some problems cannot be corrected at any cost.

We offer a free conference of up to one hour with an experienced (a minimum of 10 years) bankruptcy, tax problem, foreclosure and debt resolution attorney (not a junior associate or paralegal) who will fully analyze your specific financial situation, and advise you as to your available options, likelihood of success, and the costs and procedures involved in each alternative.

[danaf]

I looked back in a few of your posts. The renter income doesn't help. I don't know your stats but bk is about income vs expenses. There have been people on here that make above the median and filed 7's successfully. What I can tell you is not to take on any more debt and DO NOT CLAIM 0 ON YOUR W-4 - THAT WILL REALLY HURT YOU ON THE MEANS TEST. You seem anxious to file however if you think you qualify for ch7 - you need to pre-plan and take the time to do so. Also - stop paying money to bk lawyers. Consults should be free. And one more thing - trustees can look back longer than 6 mos of bank statements. 6 mos is the practice but it is their perogative to ask for whatever they want. So just keep that in mind. And I have read on here of people's trustees asking for a yr or more of bank statements.

[JRScott]

Some lawyers do indeed try to steer folks into chapter 13s to make more money or to make the caseload easier on them. If you really want a chapter 7 you are going to need a lawyer willing to fight for you.

The first place to look is over your expenses, make sure you didn't forget to list anything like property taxes, grooming costs, etc. Also make sure that you included enough on the food, clothing, gas lines to actually cover those expenses within the allowed amounts.

[boiler704]

Not sure what our family situation is (kids, etc) but if your wife can quit her job I recommend doing that and then waiting a few months to file. I was making way over the median, quit my job, went overseas for a year, came back, filed chapter 7 and am awaiting discharge.

I was in a no asset situation, no dependents so it was easy for me to quit. The thought of making payments for 5 years was too much for me and since I had no assets to protect I went that route.

[Flamingo]

Thanks for the reponse. I am located in Orange County, California. If you find a good attorney let me know.

This has been so fustrating.....a attorney with 30 yrs of experience who gave me a 99.9% chance of chapter 7 during our consultation says now that i am not even close. I already wasted $500 on this guy for not even trying. The other attorney crunched the numbers and gave me a solid number which $390.92 above the means test.. I guess i will be sticking to the attorney with only a years experience, at least she is trying.

Does anyone know what I need to do to make it a chapter 7? I am even considering telling wife to take leave of absense for several months since she doesn't get paid much anyways.

__________________________________________________ _

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the new law itself that took effect in 10/05 is what puts more people in line to file Chapter 13 instead of Chapter 7. It was designed so that pepole would could afford to repay some of the debt would actually repay some of the debt and not get away with filing a Chapter 7. Prior to the old law, it was much easier to file a Chapter 7 and there was also lots of fraud and abuse taking place in order to do so. The creditors wanted to make more folks pay for their debts who were able to pay and let's face it, some people can especially if they want to keep some assets. We wanted to keep our house when we filed in 2002 so we did a Chapter 13. It was hard, but we kept our house and repaid 64% of our debt. It all depends on your specific situation, what you can and cannot do at the moment and what you want to do in the future. When you file a Chapter 7, you need to know it will not be that easy in the coming years to obtain another mortgage, house or credit; especially after this economic crisis as lending practices have and will change more dramatically in the years to come. People are going to have to become more responsible for their financial actions and find out that the credit pool has dried up and learn to pay with cash since they cannot get all the easy credit anymore.

Remember, a Trustee can go back more than six months to view your financial affairs when you file and they know all the tricks people pull to try to file; if there is a red flag as to anything, including quitting jobs to be eligible to file, it could be noticed. Filing BK, either Chapter, is not easy....lots of us have learned that and will do everything not to get ourselves in that position again.