Christianity and Bankruptcy

[AngelinaCatHub]

I would say that people who go to those types of forums go there specifially to argue & change minds, like you say. Christians in general feel they have to "save' people by getting them to believe the same stuff, though I have to admit the ones here are not pushy & converting in that way, nor do they use fear tactics, which I respect.

[AngelinaCatHub]

OK, I did it. Let's all go over to "Let's just talk about Religion" I have put upon the General Talk forum. 'Hub

[Bandit]

I'm saddened no one responded to my comments on page 3 , I tried to get the conversation back on track....at least that was my intention.

Remember the parable of the servant who owed a certain amount and could not pay it so his master forgave him. Then the servant who had owed much went to another servant who owed him little and had him cast into prison when he could not pay. Then the master heard of it and came and took the servant he had forgiven and cast him into chains because he had not forgiven likewise that which was owed to him.

That's kinda like bankruptcy. There is a means for us to get mercy from our debt. The founding fathers were inspired to include this right into the constitution (Article I, Section 8 Clause 4).

I was just going to get to yours but have not had the chance. really I liked yours as well. If you look you will see I was responding to everyone who did not get a response, even those who do not like me.

I was also suprized that no christians commented on it.

But this one is true too because what bankruptcy shows people is, if you expect to obtain mercy then you must also show mercy...something that not very many really can grasp until things like or during & after a BK.

you were not forgotten, JRScott

[Bandit]

OK, I did it. Let's all go over to "Let's just talk about Religion" I have put upon the General Talk forum. 'Hub

but to just talk about religion would be boring

just kidding!

[AngelinaCatHub]

I was just going to get to yours but have not had the chance. really I liked yours as well. If you look you will see I was responding to everyone who did not get a response, even those who do not like me.

I was also suprized that no christians commented on it.

But this one is true too because what bankruptcy shows people is, if you expect to obtain mercy then you must also show mercy...something that not very many really can grasp until things like or during & after a BK.

you were not forgotten, JRScott

Hey, who would NOT like you? My real concern and part of the reason I am bankrupt is, in a local bulletin board, this creep outed a lesbian couple by name. Wife and I were good friends with this couple and I scorched his a$$. He is a multi millionair and I had big money also. The short of it was this feud grew like a snowball and even went into the newspapers, on billboards and politics. I had sequential law suits never completed by this guy his intent to break my bank. He did. He is the one currently in the AP attempting to screw up our bk. He is the one who located the Mortgage Deed and anonymously gave the information to my Trustee. You can see why I am so sensitive about seeing the downfall of this clean and good place.

It's like dominoes, or better, remember the poem of "for the loss of a nail....."

'Hub

[b_girl]

b_girl

I agree - this has become a thread "hijacked" for some people to spew their hatred and resentment, for whatever their reasons, toward Christians and Christianity. They seem to enjoy that, because they post every few minutes. Some speak of "tunnel vision" but cannot see their own. I had concerns along the line of the OP and would have liked to discuss the actual subject, but chose not to post in this thread till now. I am sure I will be jumped upon for doing so. Judgemental isn't just for Christians. BK is hard enough without this. Its really sad. Oh well...

Thanks, PoorGrammy...I keep hoping we will just discuss how Christians react to those of us who are in bankruptcy, not about religion and whatever other topic is being attached to religion. Geesh, some folks on here like to argue about the smallest things.

Thanks JR for your post, too...it really is clear by the example you noted that God intended us to be forgiving of each other, particularly Christians who are purportedly following in his footsteps, so to be negatively judged by our own brethern hurts both us and them. God made it clear that we are not to do this, yet it happens...which is why I'm not advertising my bankruptcy. Course we don't have to... both our local paper as well as the largest paper in our state have already done that.

And much thanks to you Hub for starting that new thread! I hope they take advantage of it so that can chew that bone to death to their hearts content.

[BigJohn]

When it comes to the various religions; most people have a religion but know almost nothing about their religion. So how can a person provide an answer abbout their religion?

As for Christianity and bankruptcies; what Jesus taught and his examples should provide us with the needed answer.

Jesus was a Jew and died under the Law as a Jew. It wasn't till after his death that his followers became 'Christians'. His early followers conducted their meeting in Temples as if they were a sect of Judiaism.

Jesus' form of Judiasm taught forgiveness, compassion, and minding one's one business. His early followers who had some wealth would sell some of their belongings so their poorer brothers would be provided. It would seem they practiced a form of Socialism that truly benefited everybody instead of a just few.

If Jesus were asked about bankruptcy, he would probably speak about what caused the financial crisis and then look for a solution. Compassion would be wrapped up in his answer but wisdom would also be displayed. The true condition of the person's heart would come forth which would direct what kind of answer to present.

[AngelinaCat]

test

[Bandit]

testing testing 123

[ameliabedilia]

As Christians (and Jews and Muslims have similar versus) if we followed our scriptures we would have no debt. There are 700 references in the Bible about managing money. 2/3rds of the parables deal with money. 1 out of every 6 versus in the Gospels deal with the right or wrong use of material wealth.

We are not perfect people though. I joined the Mormon church 12 years ago. From the time I joined even until this day I have heard church leaders speak against debt. Yet in moving back to North Carolina I chose to go into debt which was a mistake. Had I stayed in Utah another 6 months I could have afforded the move without any problems or debt. If I had done that I would have never had a credit card. That's right I lived for 30 years without a credit card. Then within 7 years of getting one I ended up in bankruptcy.

It led to a lot of problems. Concern over the debt led to increased stress which led to physical injury which led to more stress and mental depression. I had spoken in 2005 with a church leader/friend about the possibility of bankruptcy. He suggested it was not the right course. So I struggled with the problem for 2 more years, my physical/mental problems got worse. I stopped attending church because I just felt so bad it was hard to make the drive there as it is a fairly lengthy one. In early 2007 I made a deal with my boss that would enable me to go to church. I have been attending regularly since that time. After much prayer and consideration I decided I needed to file bankruptcy, there just was no other way. I spoke to this leader/friend again and he said that he was sorry that his words 2 years before had led to so much trouble. He had hoped I would find another way but was very understanding that I had not.

Since returning to church and the bankruptcy I have been very open about it at times, advising others to avoid debt where ever possible. To watch how much they get in student loans. How much they spend on cars. I have been well received back into the church and regularly teach the elders.

I learned I was not alone in the situation, many of the brethren and sisters had run afoul of this problem. It is one of the most basic teachings of the Bible yet many of us fall short on this one, because debt is the easy path. It is seductive to get something now and pay for it later. It is by such means that Satan leads us down wrong paths. If you must have debt do so only for housing and education. Then do so only to the minimal amount necessary. It is very hard to afford a house without debt but make sure you are not buying to much house for your needs. Education is expensive as well, but where possible seek to work a job and reduce the amount of debt incurred as much as possible. Unless required for work do not ever buy a new car or incur debt for one, it is better to buy an older car that you can own than to have the additional burden of debt. This has been the council of our church for many decades, I wish I had listened more to it and not had the problems of the past few years but I am glad for the experience. Perhaps someday I will be able to help enough to steer men from this dangerous path.

We should not though look down upon those who are less fortunate. We should seek to forgive all men their transgressions even as they forgive us, for if we forgive not out brother, then Christ will not forgive us and we will be flung into that outer darkness in which not even the spirit of God visits in the last day.

I just spent a half hour or so trying to get through this thread .
jrscott- I liked your post and found it interesting. I was raised mormon and come from "pioneer stock" even. I think this thread is proof to me that bk is a business decision, not a religious one. Why are we caring about what so called Christians think about why we file? I know for a fact that mormon leaders are lay people, not trained in finances or counseling or even theology. It's too bad you let that person's opinion hold so much weight with you. My opinion is that people who are judgemental and yucky are that way because they are sh*tty people, not because of their religion. My cousin is a super mormon and he is an ok guy. However, he runs a used car dealership in Sandy, UT that charges 20% interest for in house financing. That's crappy, and it has nothing to do with him being a mormon, it's because he wants to make a lot of money. He has separated the financial stuff from the religious stuff. Some people are just extra judgemental and rude, and many of them justify it by using religion and the bible. But really it's a flaw in personality.

My other cousin who is one of my best friends and who is also very religious (mormon) has a very unchristian attitude toward illegal aliens, in my opinion. Others feel the opposite I am sure. I feel very compassionate toward these individuals and want to open our borders because I was raised on the border. My cousin is no less a Christian to me because she wants them out, and I am certainly not more of one to her. Just different feelings and life experiences.
Her opinion on this subject means nothing to me because I do not think she is an expert or even well educated in it. Same with bankruptcy- I would never ask her opinion on something I don't think she knows much about.

I do believe that the melding and joining forces of religion and politics has really turned alot of people against organized religion and christianity. It has for me.

[JRScott]

While it is true they are all lay people, they do give good advice. Had I listened to church leaders in the first place, I wouldn't have been in a position to need bankruptcy, however like many people I fell into the trap so many in our nation does.

It is possible had I actually scheduled some appointments with local leaders that they might have referred me to a program or similar situation whereupon I might have found another way out before it was to late. They started teaching Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University the month after I returned to church and had filed bankruptcy. It is a very good program I think. I took it and it has helped tremendously with budgeting.

As for your cousin, one wonders how he will answer the question How have you treated your fellow man? at the judgment bar of Christ. 20% interest is usury in the extreme. Far to many in the church place their hearts on gold and silver and though they may seem to be great members of the church I worry about them. I've had many LDS woman refuse to date me because of my lack of wealth, and I have concerns for them as well.

Still the parable of the servant who owed money I think is one of the most applicable to bankruptcy. I hope we can all do better than the servant who was forgiven much but could not forgive a little. Sin takes many forms, some more noticeable than others but we are all sinners, for if we were perfect then would we not be taken up into the heavens even as the city of Enoch, or Elijah?

[Bandit]

for if we were perfect then would we not be taken up into the heavens even as the city of Enoch, or Elijah?

Elijah is the legacy that brought fire from the sky, raised the dead, went up in a whirlwind, chariot riding, & later gets all screwed up & debated with JTB.

Enoch was Noahs great grandpa & the tale says he never died...not the same as Cains son.

[Bandit]

I do believe that the melding and joining forces of religion and politics has really turned alot of people against organized religion and christianity. It has for me.

[JRScott]

Elijah did not die in the truest sense, he was translated, much like John the Revelator.

2 Kings 2:11-12 describe how he translated when the chariot of fire came to get him. In the next versus we learn that Elijah's mantle fell upon Elisha. A mantle is a piece of clothing that fits over ones shoulders, sometimes with a cowl othertimes not. It is clear that Elisha says he saw him no more. So it is clear Elijah did not die in the truest sense.

His parentage is not defined in the Bible, which is unusual for a prophet in the Bible. (Nor is his parentage revealed in LDS scriptures such as the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants).

Enoch was 7th from Adam and was the son of Jared and the father of Methuselah. Little is included about his teachings in the Christian bible, and little has survived in Jewish tradition either. His works are cited by Jude at one point. The bible deals only little with Enoch only describing him as preaching to the city of Enoch which was taken up into the Heavens. It is to return when Christ's forms his domain on Earth. Enoch was descended from Adam's son Seth.

Not sure which you are calling a son of Cain.

[espo1357]

I think also in the New Testiment, Jesus went into the Temple and tore up the "money changers". I believe "money changers" were about like our "payday loan" companies. Or currency converters with a profit in the conversion. Correct me if I'm wrong. 'Hub

Well, that had more to do with Jesus' being upset that the Temple was a place of worship, not Wal Mart.

Christians are so naive sometimes (I became a Christian about ten years ago, and I was very naive in my thinking at that time).

The law is the law. And if you have to file, then file. Its just a business decision.

As long as we are honest with the courts, we are right.