Christianity and Bankruptcy

[Bandit]

I am not judging someone's "lifelong character" for quoting what they have said. Why do you suppose those quotes are out of context....because you cant stomach what they had to say about Christianity and religion in general. Like I said before, this country was not founded on Chrisitan "principles, ideals, ethics, morals, or any other term that you want to imagine. Again refer back to the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 where it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

UNANIMOUSLY signed by the Senate and signed by George Washington, John Adams, etc.

Look it up and read it yourself. But you can be lazy about it and just say Im taking it out of context. That always works.....

They are not out of context, bmrigs

It is called tunnel vision.

The other one that you will always hear is, they are not the real christians.

BTW- was it not Bush the Christian who created all these hoops with the new BK laws? Was it not Bush who has floated how many trillions of dollars in debt? who loves war & killing innocents? was it not the christians who backed him, until of course his policy failed...now he is not a real christian... yet he says everyone filing BK needs to take a course in how to manage money? While he himself is bankrupting this 'christian founded' country?

Who needs questions & free thinking? when it Sounds good, just eat it because we say so.

[AngelinaCatHub]

I disagree. Dont close it but move it in General Talk. If this discussion is not your cup of tea then dont read the posts in it but dont suggest to others to refrain because you think that discussing politics and religion is taboo.

'Rigs: Don't get me wrong, I certainly am not against freedom of speech. But as you can see, this thread has lost all of it's author's meaning and like the discussion of how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin, it goes nowhere as with Religion and politics, you are bound not to change minds but to flame another. Just to talk friendly is not the problem. I have seen too many forum become "belittling" to other people so I fear this to become the same. As we are all in the same boat, we need to stay comrades and not competitors. That's all my intent of that post was meant to be. I like everyone here, and I would hope everyone feels the same. I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but I would defend your right to have your own belief. It is my opinion only. 'Hub

[Bandit]

'Rigs: Don't get me wrong, I certainly am not against freedom of speech. But as you can see, this thread has lost all of it's author's meaning and like the discussion of how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin, it goes nowhere as with Religion and politics, you are bound not to change minds but to flame another. Just to talk friendly is not the problem. I have seen too many forum become "belittling" to other people so I fear this to become the same. As we are all in the same boat, we need to stay comrades and not competitors. That's all my intent of that post was meant to be. I like everyone here, and I would hope everyone feels the same.

I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but I would defend your right to have your own belief.

It is my opinion only. 'Hub

Kindest regards, AngelinaCatHub

I would say that people who go to those types of forums go there specifially to argue & change minds, like you say. Christians in general feel they have to "save' people by getting them to believe the same stuff, though I have to admit the ones here are not pushy & converting in that way, nor do they use fear tactics, which I respect.

I don't see people coming here with the intent just to do that.

I found the discussion very important because I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this is a Christian nation & founded on the christian religion. Historical evidence proves other wise & any honest christian who knows history will admit it.
Bush declared himself that everyone in the united states should be allowed to worship how they choose, though we all know he is a big fat liar. He would not be able to say that if this was country was like the arab world for muslims & USA for christians only.

And, let's be honest...There are at least 5 billion people in the world including christians who have no problem telling the modern popes to get lost as they do not own us nor can they demand the world to bow to them like they used to. That was a big problem & why the people left to begin with.

Religion had very little to do with those first few documents in the colonies when those people knew what it was like to be forced into the catholic religion & not be given a choice to ask questions & search on there own. Everyone in the old world was silenced & killed if they had a different religion than the pope.

The main objective was to keep church & state seperate allowing everyone to believe as they choose & it is very clear to this day.

Well, here we are again with the Christians doing the same exact stuff they ran away from in Europe, still trying to dominate everyones lives through religious politics. The very nature of the christian religion itself does not allow for freedom of religion & as a comparison we can see this in the muslim & arab world doing the same exact thing.
You cannot turn the united states into it being a political relgion calling it christian nation, though certain people have tried & then they wonder why they get thrown into jail for trying to force their religion on others in public. Why do some christians get the thrown into jail for prostelyzing in public places? IT is not persecution. It is because the country was not founded on the christian religion & they need to get that through their heads.

While I would agree with you that anyone going to a religous or political forum just to debate invisible beliefs in the sense of being real facts, is a huge waste of time. While Going back to search the historical documents, quotes, & searching for facts, surveys & other evidence makes for a great dialogue.

my two pennies

p.s.

I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but I would defend your right to have your own belief.

I am the same & Thank You.

The American Indian Religious Freedom Act (commonly abbreviated to AIRFA) is a 1978 United States federal law and a joint resolution of Congress which pledged to protect and preserve the traditional religious rights of American Indians, Eskimos, Aleuts, and Native Hawaiians.[1]

[bmrigs]

They are not out of context, bmrigs

It is called tunnel vision.

The other one that you will always hear is, they are not the real christians.

BTW- was it not Bush the Christian who created all these hoops with the new BK laws? Was it not Bush who has floated how many trillions of dollars in debt? who loves war & killing innocents? was it not the christians who backed him, until of course his policy failed...now he is not a real christian... yet he says everyone filing BK needs to take a course in how to manage money? While he himself is bankrupting this 'christian founded' country?

Who needs questions & free thinking? when it Sounds good, just eat it because we say so.

Another term synonymous with 'tunnel vision' is willful ignorance. I like Wikepdedia's definition of it: The bad faith decision to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable conclusions that such information might prompt'. That explains why myths and misconceptions never go away in the minds of people. They dont want to come to the conclusion that everything they have been taught in life from parents, schools, religion, media, govt was bs. They become a slave to their own beliefs. They would rather work, come home, eat, then watch American Idol or some other stupid tv show that entertains instead of inform. We as a nation have been dumbed down and programmed to accept what is taught and not to question anything. It makes the govt's job easier to control and manipulate us.

[b_girl]

actually, we talk about religion & politics here all the time in many different threads & of course no one will ever agree. So what.

it makes no difference to me where it is discussed or if it is never discussed.
Considering that bankrutpcy is a government issue as well, we might all learn something if everyone is allowed to speak & not be silenced.
The thread was also started about Christians judging others based on a BK & that is why people want to discuss it a little farther because they not only judge people on BK but in many other things.

It is only a discussion not a bar room brawl, though they could flush the whole thing down as well. This will only go for a day or two then everyone will be bored with it.

Yes but..when I came into this thread, I was immediately turned off by the direction the discussion took, which is totally not what the thread's author intended. I was hoping to discuss the topic at hand, not religion and everything else anybody wants to say about it... Courtesy dictates that you take the discussion to its own thread...JMO for what it's worth.

[Bandit]

Yes but..when I came into this thread, I was immediately turned off by the direction the discussion took, which is totally not what the thread's author intended. I was hoping to discuss the topic at hand, not religion and everything else anybody wants to say about it... Courtesy dictates that you take the discussion to its own thread...JMO for what it's worth.

you say you dont want to discuss relgion, yet religon is part of the topic.

no one said you cant discuss that in this thread. courtesy would allow everyone to speak & not try to silence them, as you seem to want to do like 4 times now.
so why not discuss what you want to discuss on your views instead of trying to tell everyone else not to talk & go somewhere else?

all you keep telling us is your views of when & where everyone should talk & they can only say what you feel they should say, based on your own interpretations of this thread. Really b_girl, if it turns you off so much why bother keep reading it & responding. I stay away from threads I dont want to read or discuss.

I have found it a great discussion even if you do not. a lot of good information has been put forth.

[Bandit]

Another term synonymous with 'tunnel vision' is willful ignorance. I like Wikepdedia's definition of it: The bad faith decision to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable conclusions that such information might prompt'. That explains why myths and misconceptions never go away in the minds of people. They dont want to come to the conclusion that everything they have been taught in life from parents, schools, religion, media, govt was bs. They become a slave to their own beliefs. They would rather work, come home, eat, then watch American Idol or some other stupid tv show that entertains instead of inform. We as a nation have been dumbed down and programmed to accept what is taught and not to question anything. It makes the govt's job easier to control and manipulate us.

But I question everything & will continue to question everything. We are actually in complete agreement.

[PoorGrammyinBK7]

b_girl

I agree - this has become a thread "hijacked" for some people to spew their hatred and resentment, for whatever their reasons, toward Christians and Christianity. They seem to enjoy that, because they post every few minutes. Some speak of "tunnel vision" but cannot see their own. I had concerns along the line of the OP and would have liked to discuss the actual subject, but chose not to post in this thread till now. I am sure I will be jumped upon for doing so. Judgemental isn't just for Christians. BK is hard enough without this. Its really sad. Oh well...

[Phillymanhere]

I have to say: I find this entire discussion to be foolish.

As far as I'm concerned, about 80 percent of Americans are Christians. So to try to isolate the responses of Christians, seems completely and utterly foolish.

Christians are left wing and right wing, rich and poor, black and white and Hispanic and Asian and African, liberal and conservative, Democrats and Republicans, good parents and bad, old and young, ugly, pretty, make-up wearers, non make-up wearers, profane speakers and non-profane beaters, child molesters and loving foster parents, bank robbers and fbi agents. There are thousands and thousands of Christians in jail and prison and they are guarded by people who are often Christian. And the people these criminals victimized were Christian.

Can we move on to something else folks? ...

[Bandit]

b_girl

I agree - this has become a thread "hijacked" for some people to spew their hatred and resentment, for whatever their reasons, toward Christians and Christianity. They seem to enjoy that, because they post every few minutes. Some speak of "tunnel vision" but cannot see their own. I had concerns along the line of the OP and would have liked to discuss the actual subject, but chose not to post in this thread till now. I am sure I will be jumped upon for doing so. Judgemental isn't just for Christians. BK is hard enough without this. Its really sad. Oh well...

so why dont you address the OP? Religon & BK. I did

we can post as much or little as we want. there is no rule that says you can only post a little or a lot.

then why dont you stay on topic? why is it that everyone else is off topic but you say stuff like that is on topic? Why not address the facts that have been presented then?
you have a right speak & say what you want & everyone else has right to say what they want.

I have not seen any one spew hatred. Just because someone rejects your religion & people do not agree does not make them haters. That is a pretty strong accusation toward others. Good grief.

so basicly what I am getting from your post is, only Christians are allowed to speak on this thread. Yes?

[Bandit]

Interesting topic of discussion.

I became born-again only 10 years ago. I'm 40-ish. Long held the belief and is clear from many of the our founding father's own personal and even doctrinal writings that many were or held deist beliefs. Let's face the facts, many were firm believers that the subjugation of human beings and common abuse/disregard thereof was permissible. It's amazing how scriptures even dictate how slave owners should treat slaves (including setting them free after a period of time; this didn't happen did it?).

What IS important is that our founding fathers were, for the most part, practical and prudent to an appreciable degree. Think about it...the original settlers were fleeing persecution, including religious. The last thing they wanted to do was to establish some sort of theocratic institution established by flawed and sinful men. The problem is not GOD, it's you and I.

As per those "christians" who judge people considering, going through, or have gone through bankruptcy, as it has been revealed here, they tend to be predictably ignorant of scriptures as a whole. Scriptures warn against debt, advise financial prudence, but also understands and illustrates the real experience of being human, mortal, flawed and often under the confines of this world that is not godly.

I, too, am concerned with the less than godly direction that this country seems to lean towards. But the true culprit in this deterioration of religious dedication and respect for moral aptitude has its roots from those who are most eager to prevail upon others that "they" are godly and the rest are not. In other words, not enough of the christian-world truly embodies and therefore, reflects Christ's teachings for the rest of the world to emulate, admire, embrace.

As long as your intentions are honest and not a result of a desire to take advantage of the system, bankruptcy is "Caesar's" (and scripture-based) way for you to get another chance in life financially.

Babbled too much...

I wanted to come back to this post since no one else did. I found it to be very educated & right on the money and it was much appreciated. They were in fact fleeing religous persecution explaining why things went the way it did.

It would be intersting to see how BK was handled during those times.

newbeginning, you did not bable too much at all.

[bmrigs]

I have to say: I find this entire discussion to be foolish.


Can we move on to something else folks? ...

No, if you think this discussion is foolish then you should move on. Why should we all be silenced because of how you feel?

[rfassett]

Jeez - tunnel vision and religous persecution runs rampant in this thread. I guess if you have deep seated conviction to your religion, regardless of how you got there, it is your mother's fault. And the hate and venom being spewed toward those that profess their faith in the Christian doctrine flys in the face of the very thing espoused, freedom of religion, or to each his own. It is just peachy keen for some to declare freedom from religion, but it is travesty for a Christian to take a stand based on his religious beliefs. Interesting!

I have neither attempted to convert nor save, I have simply pointed out the truth. Oh yeah, the truth is what it is. The founders of the United States that was formed a couple of hundred years ago, were, in large part, people that read their Bibles on a regular basis, and therefore, their lives and ideals were influenced by the Bible. Therefore the country was formed upon Biblical principles.

And I HAVE studied the Bible from the historical perspective. It's funny how a book can be as alive today as it was hundreds of years ago. I am aware of when the Bible was written and I am aware that there have been additions and deletions. I have explored and study the times from which the Word comes and I find almost perfect applications in today's world. I have never, ever been accused of having tunnel vision. You have to understand that the Christian walk is not a religion to me - it is a way of life; it is MY life. Just as Bandit read and studied the Bible and found it wanting, I have studied it and find it to be the very word of God. And yes, the churches, and the Christian fellowship for that matter, are full of hypocrits. I even lamented on that very issue once to a very wise person and was asked "what about you". In other words, it doesn't matter what those folks think, say and do, God will take care of them just like He will take care of me.

And finally, the fact that one is a Christian does not make one perfect in what he says or does. Bush, the Congress, local politicians and business people, Christian or not, make the same kinds of mistakes. Christiananity does not place a Christian on a pedestal, nor should non-Christians attempt to put the Christians there. I am no better than the next guy simply because I am a Christian. I struggle in the same world that the non-Christians do.

And that is all that I have to save about that!

[JRScott]

I'm saddened no one responded to my comments on page 3 , I tried to get the conversation back on track....at least that was my intention.

Remember the parable of the servant who owed a certain amount and could not pay it so his master forgave him. Then the servant who had owed much went to another servant who owed him little and had him cast into prison when he could not pay. Then the master heard of it and came and took the servant he had forgiven and cast him into chains because he had not forgiven likewise that which was owed to him.

That's kinda like bankruptcy. There is a means for us to get mercy from our debt. The founding fathers were inspired to include this right into the constitution (Article I, Section 8 Clause 4).

[Bandit]

First...forgive me, I tend to ramble...

You know, sometimes I wonder if scorn from Christians is because in the U.S. we've become too aligned politically to the Republican party. (I might take this year off -- shhh)

There are a couple issues that make most of us Republicans, but I wonder why we've not questioned some Republican priorities which aren't really biblical... attitudes toward the poor, races different than our own, and working people for example.

With Bankruptcy, this Republican bondage might be how we turn our God of second chances into some sort of God of "moral obligations" ...even in situations that were out of our control.

The culture at my church often dissapoints me, but I've quietly identified others there who seek the heart of God, not just a set of rules and regulations.

Tom_Mi, I also wanted to briefly say, I appreciated your reply as well. Really I did because I can relate very well to things in my own life on second chances, especially to the latter sentiments coming from the heart & not just a form of hierarchy and legalism.


Very Nice