Christianity and Bankruptcy

[Tom_Mi]

I think this thread is going on a wrong tangent. Let's get back to point--namely, whether a Christian filing bankruptcy is frowned on by other Christians. As a Christian, I have never condemned those who I knew had filed bankruptcy, but I'm pretty sure others did. I try to remind myself that Christians are humans first, and for some reason, a stigma has been attached to filing bankruptcy...like it's some kind of failure on our part, like we didn't try hard enough to avoid it. Far from the truth, isn't it? Even if we made mistakes along the way, I don't know of anyone who took the road to bankruptcy just for the fun of it.

First...forgive me, I tend to ramble...

You know, sometimes I wonder if scorn from Christians is because in the U.S. we've become too aligned politically to the Republican party. (I might take this year off -- shhh)

There are a couple issues that make most of us Republicans, but I wonder why we've not questioned some Republican priorities which aren't really biblical... attitudes toward the poor, races different than our own, and working people for example.

With Bankruptcy, this Republican bondage might be how we turn our God of second chances into some sort of God of "moral obligations" ...even in situations that were out of our control.

The culture at my church often dissapoints me, but I've quietly identified others there who seek the heart of God, not just a set of rules and regulations.

[bmrigs]

I disagree. Dont close it but move it in General Talk. If this discussion is not your cup of tea then dont read the posts in it but dont suggest to others to refrain because you think that discussing politics and religion is taboo.

[squeaks]

It seems to me that many here believe the myths told in popular culture about today's Christians and argue against these caricatures for the sake of convenience. Bandit claims 80% of the crime in this country is committed by Christians.

Have you looked into the hearts of each of these individuals to find out if these people indeed live as Christ did? Possibly they just say they're Christians and because it makes it easier for you to browbeat Christians, you just take it at face value.

Some in here have said that Republicans don't like the poor or people of other races. I'm extremely active in both my church and in the GOP and almost never encounter such sentiments and they absolutely exist on the fringe. Orwell talked of a "shadow army" and our media and popular culture have certainly created one. Its called "The Religious Right"

Which is worse, to condemn bad behavior in hopes the bad behavior ceases and those responsible for that behavior no longer suffer the consequences of that behavior or to accomodate that bad behavior through subsidies such as welfare?

If what has been posted here is true then why is charitable giving higher in the more religious "red states"? We are instructed to help when it is needed and when it is possible which happens to be pretty much all the time. We are taught that we are not in a position to place final judgement but are accused of judging because we do not like our tax dollars used to destroy the unborn.

Ask yourselves this. Why do those on the secular left weep more for the fact that the men in Guantanamo do not have tennis courts than they do for the fact that the most innocent among us are destroyed for reasons of convenience?

I live near San Francisco and can report that this secular city is devoid of a soul. It is narcicism posing as tolerance. Its unreal, religion is practically dead in this city yet they blame religion for the problems of the city.

I always thought the nation was religious and was governed by a secular government. Many of our laws are derived from religion but then again, you could say that they are also derived from common sense for the most part.

It is in society's best interest to sometimes give its citizens relief from debt because usually, especially in this day and age, the creditor forgiving the debt so a citizen can return to being productive produces the best outcome for society.

[justplaintired]

I disagree. Dont close it but move it in General Talk. If this discussion is not your cup of tea then dont read the posts in it but dont suggest to others to refrain because you think that discussing politics and religion is taboo.

I totally agree but was afraid to say so. This is an interesting thread, no harm done, nobody is arguing. Please leave this thread available for those of us who need something to think about other then BK. This is a very enjoyable thread to me and it seems to be to many other members too.

Thanks bmrigs for posting, I thought maybe I was the only one who was hoping this thread would remain available for awhile.

Just a quick add here, it would seem that moving this to general talk may be the solution. That way if someone who only wishes to discuss BK they can avoid this thread. I personal have resolved myself to what we are going thru and do need a distraction from BK sometimes and I do enjoy friendly bander on other subjects. I know that someday BK will be behind us in the sense that I will think of other things, I have already entered that phase. My life is alot more then simply going thru BK. All of us reach that point I would think.

[bmrigs]

I totally agree but was afraid to say so. This is an interesting thread, no harm done, nobody is arguing. Please leave this thread available for those of us who need something to think about other then BK. This is a very enjoyable thread to me and it seems to be to many other members too.

Thanks bmrigs for posting, I thought maybe I was the only one who was hoping this thread would remain available for awhile.

You welcome. I just think its important to keep an open forum where everyone's ideas and opinions can be expressed and scrutinized alike. And fortunately there is that here in bkforum under general talk. I do apologize to the original poster for hijacking this thread because I took issue with his or her opinion that this is a Christian based nation. I am, like alot of you,are going through the financial troubles that have brought us all here. Some of you on here are realizing that I can be controversial because of my alternative viewpoints. I question everything, authority, religion, traditions, etc. Its part of being a free thinker. Good night all.

[b_girl]

I just think that this thread is being hijacked and taken in a totally opposite direction than its author intended. I agree that this topic merits discussion..perhaps a new thread should be started specifically to address the issue? That way, when other members pop in here to discuss 'Christianity and Bankruptcy' they don't find themselves in a heated discussion about 'Christianity and our government' instead.

[csrhjr31]

I think BK can be one of those life-shaping experiences that makes a person a better Christian than they ever would have been without having gone through it. I will never judge another person the way I did before, assuming that the reason they are homeless is because of choices they made (like abusing alcohol and drugs). Seeing how quickly life can change because of the inability to find a job, health problems, circumstances beyond a person's control, I have a real sense of compassion that I didn't have before.

I also feel like our priorities are finally straight... having a nice car and a nice home - DEAD LAST! And finally, I witnessed unmistakable divine intervention when our case was not dismissed! I felt that truly was a miracle, and discharge would be another.

I agree. I am now a firm believer that until you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, you shouldn't cast judgements.

[Bandit]

It seems to me that many here believe the myths told in popular culture about today's Christians and argue against these caricatures for the sake of convenience. Bandit claims 80% of the crime in this country is committed by Christians.

it is not a myth. it is factual. why would you call something that is studied & a fact, a myth?
if you are going to call it a myth & not a fact then you would you not try to prove the fact & studies wrong?

I did massive amount of research on crime in America & took Criminal Justice in school. I have done a lot of research on demigraphics. If you dont believe it that is fine but unless you can prove the statistic wrong then please dont make it like my own personal claim. Maybe if you went to the jails & did your own survey you would get it.
Common sense would tell you that is the magority of the population in a country claims to be christian, then the magority of the problems will be from christians, regardless of how above everyone else they think they are.

So what is your reasoning behind all the other facts in this thread that no one seems to be able to address? for example all the politicians who claim to be christian while at the same time the survey shows that 80% of the american people say they are headed in the wrong direction.
Is that just a myth too? obviosly some christians themselves had something to say about it.

it is almost like many christians have this idea that they can break the commandments & lie, kill, steal & cheat on their wives because they ARe 'saved' they can do whatever they please.

here is a good start for you showing 75% - 85% of americans claim christian.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel1.htm

from there go to your crime lab & start your own research on crime & let me know what you get. or you may even want to ask those who do prison ministries & get a nice figure that way. That works too.

While I am not an atheist, the last christian I talked to about this tried to blame all the crime & problems on atheists. While common sense would tell anyone that atheists @ 8% of the total population, if they were all in jail at the same time (which they are not) & for those atheists @ .04% take a cell. Now figure the amount of the prisoners in the USA which is over 2 million prisoners.

here is another study & if you dont like that study then prove the numbers wrong.

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

& here it is again if you missed it the first time:

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

So whaT religion are all these prisoners who have done crimes if only .04% of them are atheist? Please tell me then?

I suppose you will tell me the usual - they are not real Christians.

[JRScott]

As Christians (and Jews and Muslims have similar versus) if we followed our scriptures we would have no debt. There are 700 references in the Bible about managing money. 2/3rds of the parables deal with money. 1 out of every 6 versus in the Gospels deal with the right or wrong use of material wealth.

We are not perfect people though. I joined the Mormon church 12 years ago. From the time I joined even until this day I have heard church leaders speak against debt. Yet in moving back to North Carolina I chose to go into debt which was a mistake. Had I stayed in Utah another 6 months I could have afforded the move without any problems or debt. If I had done that I would have never had a credit card. That's right I lived for 30 years without a credit card. Then within 7 years of getting one I ended up in bankruptcy.

It led to a lot of problems. Concern over the debt led to increased stress which led to physical injury which led to more stress and mental depression. I had spoken in 2005 with a church leader/friend about the possibility of bankruptcy. He suggested it was not the right course. So I struggled with the problem for 2 more years, my physical/mental problems got worse. I stopped attending church because I just felt so bad it was hard to make the drive there as it is a fairly lengthy one. In early 2007 I made a deal with my boss that would enable me to go to church. I have been attending regularly since that time. After much prayer and consideration I decided I needed to file bankruptcy, there just was no other way. I spoke to this leader/friend again and he said that he was sorry that his words 2 years before had led to so much trouble. He had hoped I would find another way but was very understanding that I had not.

Since returning to church and the bankruptcy I have been very open about it at times, advising others to avoid debt where ever possible. To watch how much they get in student loans. How much they spend on cars. I have been well received back into the church and regularly teach the elders.

I learned I was not alone in the situation, many of the brethren and sisters had run afoul of this problem. It is one of the most basic teachings of the Bible yet many of us fall short on this one, because debt is the easy path. It is seductive to get something now and pay for it later. It is by such means that Satan leads us down wrong paths. If you must have debt do so only for housing and education. Then do so only to the minimal amount necessary. It is very hard to afford a house without debt but make sure you are not buying to much house for your needs. Education is expensive as well, but where possible seek to work a job and reduce the amount of debt incurred as much as possible. Unless required for work do not ever buy a new car or incur debt for one, it is better to buy an older car that you can own than to have the additional burden of debt. This has been the council of our church for many decades, I wish I had listened more to it and not had the problems of the past few years but I am glad for the experience. Perhaps someday I will be able to help enough to steer men from this dangerous path.

We should not though look down upon those who are less fortunate. We should seek to forgive all men their transgressions even as they forgive us, for if we forgive not out brother, then Christ will not forgive us and we will be flung into that outer darkness in which not even the spirit of God visits in the last day.

[Bandit]

I just think that this thread is being hijacked and taken in a totally opposite direction than its author intended. I agree that this topic merits discussion..perhaps a new thread should be started specifically to address the issue? That way, when other members pop in here to discuss 'Christianity and Bankruptcy' they don't find themselves in a heated discussion about 'Christianity and our government' instead.

actually, we talk about religion & politics here all the time in many different threads & of course no one will ever agree. So what.

it makes no difference to me where it is discussed or if it is never discussed.
Considering that bankrutpcy is a government issue as well, we might all learn something if everyone is allowed to speak & not be silenced.
The thread was also started about Christians judging others based on a BK & that is why people want to discuss it a little farther because they not only judge people on BK but in many other things.

It is only a discussion not a bar room brawl, though they could flush the whole thing down as well. This will only go for a day or two then everyone will be bored with it.

[Bandit]

I totally agree but was afraid to say so. This is an interesting thread, no harm done, nobody is arguing. Please leave this thread available for those of us who need something to think about other then BK. This is a very enjoyable thread to me and it seems to be to many other members too.

Thanks bmrigs for posting, I thought maybe I was the only one who was hoping this thread would remain available for awhile.

Just a quick add here, it would seem that moving this to general talk may be the solution. That way if someone who only wishes to discuss BK they can avoid this thread. I personal have resolved myself to what we are going thru and do need a distraction from BK sometimes and I do enjoy friendly bander on other subjects. I know that someday BK will be behind us in the sense that I will think of other things, I have already entered that phase. My life is alot more then simply going thru BK. All of us reach that point I would think.

the same thing happened to me. once I figured out how to get thru all this, it became difficult to just talk about BK all the time. I have also entered that phase many months ago but I still like coming here to chat about different things. It has been pretty mellow, considering I would never even look at a religious forum again, let alone join a religioius forum due to all the hate & constant bickering over beliefs they cant even prove.

makes this place look like an ice cream social.

[rfassett]

The fact remains that the laws of this country were formed by persons that feared God and believed in the saving grace of Jesus the Christ. Therefore the country was formed on Christian principles.

Again with the misconceptions. Read the quotes above about what some of those founding fathers thought about your Christianity and Jesus.

I truly hope that my lifelong character is never judged by six to sixteen words that are quoted out of context.

Additionally, the founders of this country involved alot more people than those few persons quoted. The founders were my ancestors and your ancestors who were brave enough to step out to find a better place and make a better life.

[rfassett]

I suppose you will tell me the usual - they are not real Christians.

I will bite. I think that is exactly the case. The Bible warns of false prophets and those that wrongly claim to be "brothers". I will not judge those folks for it is not mine to judge. But I assure you, that there is going to be a very rude awakening for a whole bunch of people. Jesus said: "So, because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold - I am about to spit you out of my mouth." (Rev 3:16). Only God knows the heart. And it is only His to judge. But to indict a whole religion because 80% of the criminals claim to be that religion is wrong. I mean, we are talking about criminals. Why would we think that they are telling the truth.

Now that said, Bandit, I owe you an apology. In an earlier post, I accused you of not reading the Bible. I assumed from your comments that you did not know that the Bible is rife with examples of war, etc. That was a wrong assumption and I hereby publicly apologize to you.

[bmrigs]

I truly hope that my lifelong character is never judged by six to sixteen words that are quoted out of context.

Additionally, the founders of this country involved alot more people than those few persons quoted. The founders were my ancestors and your ancestors who were brave enough to step out to find a better place and make a better life.

I am not judging someone's "lifelong character" for quoting what they have said. Why do you suppose those quotes are out of context....because you cant stomach what they had to say about Christianity and religion in general. Like I said before, this country was not founded on Chrisitan "principles, ideals, ethics, morals, or any other term that you want to imagine. Again refer back to the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 where it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

UNANIMOUSLY signed by the Senate and signed by George Washington, John Adams, etc.

Look it up and read it yourself. But you can be lazy about it and just say Im taking it out of context. That always works.....

[Bandit]

I will bite. I think that is exactly the case. The Bible warns of false prophets and those that wrongly claim to be "brothers". I will not judge those folks for it is not mine to judge. But I assure you, that there is going to be a very rude awakening for a whole bunch of people. Jesus said: "So, because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold - I am about to spit you out of my mouth." (Rev 3:16). Only God knows the heart. And it is only His to judge. But to indict a whole religion because 80% of the criminals claim to be that religion is wrong. I mean, we are talking about criminals. Why would we think that they are telling the truth.

Now that said, Bandit, I owe you an apology. In an earlier post, I accused you of not reading the Bible. I assumed from your comments that you did not know that the Bible is rife with examples of war, etc. That was a wrong assumption and I hereby publicly apologize to you.

Why? because christians lie & break commandments just like everyone else. George Bush says he is a Christian. Does he lie? Clinton is a Christian. Did he cheat on his wife? & they are the rulers. I suppose they are not real christians yet it was christians who voted them in. No? Yes?

No problem. reading the bible was actually one of the reasons I reject the christian religion. I study as metaphors & from linguistic views but that bible itself is one reason for all the hate in the religion. I found more hate & bitterness from people in your religion than I found love in your religion. Christians not only kill those of other beliefs but they kill each other too.

They do surveys in prison. There was a documentrary many years ago noting the christians in prison & they interviewed them. I also went to a correction facility (not a prison) with a spanish friend who likes to 'witness' & thought that was an experience, & every guy there who attended claimed to be a christian. They were all over 20 & I distinctly remember them talking about being a christian & admitting to what they did being wrong or in your case, 'SIN'.
They get merits if they go to the meetings which helps get them out faster.

I dont indict because of that, I look at the whole picture & include many different facts including history & include personal experience.

I wont debate the bible with people by throwing scriptures around like cards but in my opinion that book you quoted was written with much metaphor about the Roman empire as a political system & was being directed toward Christians & Rome of that time. I also take a historical view where every generation sees the same thing happening. People really dont change that much.

I dont believe in the christian god but if you do, then that is your right. I have native American Indian beliefs and am very agnostic about religion in general.

I always find it interesting that you (christians) defend the religion before you would defend those who claim to be a christian as if christians can do no wrong. It was so funny because another christian I talked to about this said the same basic thing & that all these christians in prison who did crimes used to be atheists when they did the crime, then went to prison & got saved. But that is not the story the inmates tell.

With all due respect to your religion, rfassett, any religion that divides & conquers the way the christian religion has through right winged politics, is no example of the christ story. so basicly all these christians thru time are false prophets & not real brothers? Is that why christians of each different denomination go around trying to save those who belong to the other denominations? they are not really saved because they are not brothers?