Christianity and Bankruptcy

[bmrigs]

[BigJohn]

Ask yourself, what is a Christian nation? Then put an 'anti-' in front of the word Christian and sprinkle 'nots' in front of verbs used in your definition of Christian. Sound familiar?

[rfassett]

bmrigs - at the risk of splitting hairs, I agree that this country is not a Christian nation and never has been. There has always been freedom of, changed as of late to freedom from, religion. But that does not mean that the country was not formed upon Christian principles. The founders of the country were God-fearing men and th foundation upon which the country was formed was from the very fiber of those great men. So, no it is not a Christian nation, but it was formed upon Christian principles.

[justplaintired]

bmrigs - at the risk of splitting hairs, I agree that this country is not a Christian nation and never has been. There has always been freedom of, changed as of late to freedom from, religion. But that does not mean that the country was not formed upon Christian principles. The founders of the country were God-fearing men and th foundation upon which the country was formed was from the very fiber of those great men. So, no it is not a Christian nation, but it was formed upon Christian principles.

I agree, this country was formed upon Christian principles, but somewhere and being I am no history expert, we fell. No more prayer in schools, no 10 commandments posted anywhere, because those few who aren't Christians didn't like it. Christianity has slowly been disappearing from this great country.

[Bandit]

bmrigs - at the risk of splitting hairs, I agree that this country is not a Christian nation and never has been. There has always been freedom of, changed as of late to freedom from, religion. But that does not mean that the country was not formed upon Christian principles. The founders of the country were God-fearing men and th foundation upon which the country was formed was from the very fiber of those great men. So, no it is not a Christian nation, but it was formed upon Christian principles.

Hi rfassett

do you mean the part where the catholics killed the protestants or where the protestants killed the catholics? or the part where chirtstians killed off the amercian indians & tried to take away the religons that were alread HERE before the christians came. See Hawaiian Islands & South America for the same type of christian bloodbath to change already established Island religions, I mean principles.

from what I can see, this country was already founded & being formed before George Washinton & Columbus ever existed.
You must mean the principles they made with the Christian religion, trying to force everyone to convert, after leaving the the old world & Europe to escape the christian/catholic religion for freedom of religion. Yes?

There were god fearing men in America long before christians ever came. They called it the Great Spirit.

I think the freedom from religion (institution that is) is awesome, the fastest growing & 4th largest of them all.

[bmrigs]

I agree, this country was formed upon Christian principles, but somewhere and being I am no history expert, we fell. No more prayer in schools, no 10 commandments posted anywhere, because those few who aren't Christians didn't like it. Christianity has slowly been disappearing from this great country.

I would even dispute founded on Christian principles. Look, alot of the founders were atheists and diests believing in only a Supreme Being.

Thomas Paine: " The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind".

John Adams: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it".

Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man..."

Ethan Allen: "That Jesus was not God is evident from his own words".

Benjamin Franklin: "Lighthouses are more useful than churches".

What are Christian principles that you speak of? To do good, to help they neighbor and so forth. Those can be found in all major religions and is not specific to just Christianity.

[rfassett]

Hey Bandit! We have "been here, done that" before and you still have not taken the time to read the Bible. The Bible I read regularly has stories right and left about wars and whatnot. In fact, Israel is a "stolen" country itself. But that is not the point, nor is the point who killed who or whom. The fact remains that the laws of this country were formed by persons that feared God and believed in the saving grace of Jesus the Christ. Therefore the country was formed on Christian principles. And for someone that is quick to tout how merciless the forefathers were in taking over this land, you seem to still be here reaping the rewards. And I do not disagree with you at all about the freedom from religion being the fastest growing segment of our society. It plays right into the degradation of the moral fiber of this society. I watch with deep interest the direction this country is headed - and it ain't good pal. The economy is in the toilet. The banking industry is completely insolvent. The government has the power to do what it wants when it wants. It is no longer a government of the people and for the people. I could go on and on, but the fact remains that this country has some very, very serious problems that are not going away anytime soon. The country's economic condition is best correlated with the saying about "a house of cards". And the winds of change are blowing. I heard or read something recently, and it may have been on this board even, where somebody was posing the question, "when was the last time you felt really free". Ours is suppose to be a free country, when was the last time you felt free from the influence of the government. I repeat, I am watching with deep interest to see where this country is headed.

[bmrigs]

The fact remains that the laws of this country were formed by persons that feared God and believed in the saving grace of Jesus the Christ. Therefore the country was formed on Christian principles.

Again with the misconceptions. Read the quotes above about what some of those founding fathers thought about your Christianity and Jesus.

[Bandit]

Hey Bandit! We have "been here, done that" before and you still have not taken the time to read the Bible. The Bible I read regularly has stories right and left about wars and whatnot. In fact, Israel is a "stolen" country itself. But that is not the point, nor is the point who killed who or whom. The fact remains that the laws of this country were formed by persons that feared God and believed in the saving grace of Jesus the Christ. Therefore the country was formed on Christian principles. And for someone that is quick to tout how merciless the forefathers were in taking over this land, you seem to still be here reaping the rewards. And I do not disagree with you at all about the freedom from religion being the fastest growing segment of our society. It plays right into the degradation of the moral fiber of this society. I watch with deep interest the direction this country is headed - and it ain't good pal. The economy is in the toilet. The banking industry is completely insolvent. The government has the power to do what it wants when it wants. It is no longer a government of the people and for the people. I could go on and on, but the fact remains that this country has some very, very serious problems that are not going away anytime soon. The country's economic condition is best correlated with the saying about "a house of cards". And the winds of change are blowing. I heard or read something recently, and it may have been on this board even, where somebody was posing the question, "when was the last time you felt really free". Ours is suppose to be a free country, when was the last time you felt free from the influence of the government. I repeat, I am watching with deep interest to see where this country is headed.

Perhaps you would like to see my very worn bible before you start throwing accusations of what I have read & what I have not read. It is probably more worn out than most Christians bibles. I hear they stay quite dusty.

Why not stick to the facts of history & the present? Instead of blowing them off with your principle theory. The justification given is so silly that it entitles anyone to come into this country set up any religion they want & then call themselves the founders, starting today.

I am sure you have your own philosophy but perhaps you might want to take a look at the CHRISTIANS running this country for the mess it is in & then take another look at the CHRISTIANS who are making the laws & taking away the very freedom you speak of...the same christian politics you are trying to ignore in my first post- how convenient.

& before you try to insult & put the blame on those of different beliefs, take a real good look at those in your own belief, then another at the 80% of all crime in this country as it is committed by Christians...so stop blaming the others who reject your religion simply for rejecting it.

[bmrigs]

Perhaps you would like to see my very worn bible before you start throwing accusations of what I have read & what I have not read. It is probably more worn out than most Christians bibles. I hear they stay quite dusty.

Why not stick to the facts of history & the present? Instead of blowing them off with your principle theory. The justification given is so silly that it entitles anyone to come into this country set up any religion they want & then call themselves the founders, starting today.

I am sure you have your own philosophy but perhaps you might want to take a look at the CHRISTIANS running this country for the mess it is in & then take another look at the CHRISTIANS who are making the laws & taking away the very freedom you speak of...the same christian politics you are trying to ignore in my first post- how convenient.

& before you try to insult & put the blame on those of different beliefs, take a real good look at those in your own belief, then another at the 80% of all crime in this country as it is committed by Christians...so stop blaming the others who reject your religion simply for rejecting it.

Very well said Bandit!!

[newbeginning]

Interesting topic of discussion.

I became born-again only 10 years ago. I'm 40-ish. Long held the belief and is clear from many of the our founding father's own personal and even doctrinal writings that many were or held deist beliefs. Let's face the facts, many were firm believers that the subjugation of human beings and common abuse/disregard thereof was permissible. It's amazing how scriptures even dictate how slave owners should treat slaves (including setting them free after a period of time; this didn't happen did it?).

What IS important is that our founding fathers were, for the most part, practical and prudent to an appreciable degree. Think about it...the original settlers were fleeing persecution, including religious. The last thing they wanted to do was to establish some sort of theocratic institution established by flawed and sinful men. The problem is not GOD, it's you and I.

As per those "christians" who judge people considering, going through, or have gone through bankruptcy, as it has been revealed here, they tend to be predictably ignorant of scriptures as a whole. Scriptures warn against debt, advise financial prudence, but also understands and illustrates the real experience of being human, mortal, flawed and often under the confines of this world that is not godly.

I, too, am concerned with the less than godly direction that this country seems to lean towards. But the true culprit in this deterioration of religious dedication and respect for moral aptitude has its roots from those who are most eager to prevail upon others that "they" are godly and the rest are not. In other words, not enough of the christian-world truly embodies and therefore, reflects Christ's teachings for the rest of the world to emulate, admire, embrace.

As long as your intentions are honest and not a result of a desire to take advantage of the system, bankruptcy is "Caesar's" (and scripture-based) way for you to get another chance in life financially.

Babbled too much...

[b_girl]

I think this thread is going on a wrong tangent. Let's get back to point--namely, whether a Christian filing bankruptcy is frowned on by other Christians. As a Christian, I have never condemned those who I knew had filed bankruptcy, but I'm pretty sure others did. I try to remind myself that Christians are humans first, and for some reason, a stigma has been attached to filing bankruptcy...like it's some kind of failure on our part, like we didn't try hard enough to avoid it. Far from the truth, isn't it? Even if we made mistakes along the way, I don't know of anyone who took the road to bankruptcy just for the fun of it.

[justplaintired]

I would even dispute founded on Christian principles. Look, alot of the founders were atheists and diests believing in only a Supreme Being.


Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man..."


What are Christian principles that you speak of? To do good, to help they neighbor and so forth. Those can be found in all major religions and is not specific to just Christianity.

"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

This quote by Thomas Jefferson was written in response to a letter asking the question "Would not society be better without such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?" Bluntly stating that demonism is more closely related to Christianity than to Atheism could lead one to believe that he was not a Christian at all, however this particular statement is more indicative of his well-documented opposition to the corruption within the Christian church. He believed that the church robbed an individual's right to think and believe freely. In a letter to Benjamin Rush, in 1800, he referred to the clergy as a "form of tyranny over the mind of man," thus his comparison of Christians to demonists, but despite his disdain for the religious organizations and powerful clergy, Thomas Jefferson revered the Christian ethic. In another letter to Benjamin Rush, he proclaimed, "I am a real Christian...sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others." Thus he considered himself a Christian, albeit an unorthodox and nuanced one.





I found this very quickly and very easily by a quick search on the net, so as you can see, if you look hard enough, you can find anything you want on the net. It all depends on what site you go to, I am sure if I wanted to I could find something on all the other people you mentioned stating they were Christian. I am a person who hates to see anyone who very narrowly mind thinks one site says it all, I spend hours researching anything that I either disagree with or I want to learn more about. I found numerous sites that stated he was a Christian. Just as others have said Obama isn't a Christian, I learnt differently by spending literally hours and days reading everything I could about him and his views on religion, ofcourse this is my opinion, that is the great thing about America, I have that right. My neighbor sadly only goes to certain sites her "Religion" says are good, personally no religion will tell me how to think, maybe Jefferson felt the same way.

Perhaps Jefferson didn't like the way Christianity was in his time, it was alot different then Christianity is now, but he believed in God and what the Bible said. Interpretation has alot to do with religion and how we choose to worship. We attend a Episcopalian church in our home. I grew up in a Christian church. I believe how you choose to worship is your choice. Freedom of religion to worship however we all choose is one of the greatest things America stands for. Perhaps Jefferson believed the same things.


My apologies to b__girl, you are correct we got off on the wrong topic here. However to me this is very interesting and I enjoy reading others views on all sorts of topics and I love that we have such different opinions, but I am sorry. You must have been posting the same time I was, your post appeared as soon as I entered mine.

[AngelinaCatHub]

OK FOLKS: I was always warned about discussing (arguing) Religion and Politics. This Country was created upon the Christian/Judeo ethic. However, the founding fathers were smart enough to realize that others may not be Christian or Jewish, but we welcomed ALL. That being said, we are all free (so far) to believe in our own faith and values. I would highly suggest that the MODERATOR close out this thread as it is not the root of what this forum is about. I have passed by reading lengthy posts of opinion and quotes, to realize that this will not aid others or ourselves in our common quest of “our new start” in life. PLEASE refrain. We all are Americans and we are brothers and sisters in the same predicament. STOP this thread. Only my opinion. ‘Hub

[Bandit]

We attend a Episcopalian in our home. I grew up in a Christian church. I believe how you choose to worship is your choice. Freedom of religion to worship however we all choose is one of the greatest things America stands for. Perhaps Jefferson believed the same things.

but the episcopal is one of the few who do not exault themselves above people of other relgions. I have found that most christians elevate themselves higher than others...muslims do the same thing. now a lot of people will accept small portions of christians views but draw a line when the dogma gets ridiculous & thickheaded...perhaps that is where Jefferson was with it.

all I see Jefferson doing there is comparing different beliefs. I dont see him declaring to be anything himself in answering that question.


could it just be certain individuals in the christian religion who look down on others in BK & there is no absolute actual dogma on the Bk thing? That is what I bet it is & you would find some for & some against where ever you go.