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    My wife and I just came from a consultation with an attorney tonight. We have about $68,000 in credit card debt and are hoping to file either 7 or 13. We don't have much equity in our home, so it doesn't look like it will be a problem keeping it. I have a question for you all. We took out a loan from a CC company for $30,000 that was supposed to help us lower our payments and get out of debt this past Aug-sept. The first paralegal we spoke with could not believe that we had a $30,000 line of credit from one credit card company, she said there was no way that they would have given this large amount to us without some kind of collateral to secure it. We have always had perfect credit and until the past couple of years just got in over our heads. I called this CC company when we got home and they said it was a unsecured line of credit. The paralegal we first spoke with wants us to file a chapter 13 with them and our payment is estimated to be somewhere around $500 a month for 5 years.
    We had a consultation tonight with an attorney from a different company, he recommended us filing a chapter 7. We have made a few ($50-$100) charges in the last couple of months for items like gas and groceries so he wants to wait till mid/end July before we file our bk. He thinks we will be able to keep our home and our cars which are not worth a whole lot.
    So my real question is, this large $30,000 loan we took out was mostly used to payoff other credit cards. We took this loan out somewhere last Aug-Sept and our first payment was due in Oct of last year. The CC company deposited the full amount into our checking account at our local bank. All except about $5,000 was spent on credit card transfers. We took out a cashiers check for the last $5,000 and purchased a car for my daughter with this money. I would have put the car in my daughters name but at the time she was only 17. The car is still titled in my name and the attorney doesn't seem to think we will have any problem keeping this car in the bk. I didn't think about it until my wife pointed out on the way home that I failed to tell the attorney that we purchased this car from the last of the money we received from this CC company. Is there anyway this CC company can go back and tell we used the last of the money for this car? Since they just deposited this money in our checking account do they have anyway of knowing or proving what we spent their money on? Will we have to prove what we spent their money on? We got a cashier's check to pay for this car from our local bank, do you think the CC company could figure out and prove we used some of this money for this car? Could we just say we lived on and paid off other CC's with this loan? I'm just really worried and wished that I had thought about it and pointed this out to the attorney. Now we are sorta worried, we don't want it to look like we are trying to do anything illegal here. Is this illegal to do? Would this car be considered a luxury item? Our first car is worth maybe $3,000 and is tied up in our second mortgage. We have two other vehicles besides these that are probably together worth $2,500. So all in all we have 4 vehicles that probably are not worth more than $10,000 all together, so I hope they wouldn't view this as extravagant. I would really rather lose my daughters car (though she would kill me!) and have a smooth bk than to do something stupid and mess the whole bk up. We really have been trying with no luck to get out of this CC mess, last year I took out $22,500 from my 401k to pay on CC, if had any plans on filing a bk I sure wouldn't have thrown that money away. If anybody gives us trouble in this bk it will probably be this CC company, since they are the newest and are going to be losing the most. They will be losing around $30,000 and the rest is divided up among about 10 different companies. We both work tomorrow and will not have a chance to contact the attorney until next week. If anyone has any suggestions we would greatly appreciate them.
    Thanks

    #2
    The car will not be an issue from the point that you used the credit card money to purchase it. There is actually no way they would really know that anyway. It was in your account and you were free to use as you needed.

    Now they may not like the fact that you took our the line of credit, but in fact that is a last ditch effort of many people right before they realize they are going to need to file BK.

    I don't think it will be problem, however they can object to whatever they please. But becuase it is outside of the 90days they would have to prove your intent to defraud. The burden of proof now lies upon them to prove it was fraud and not up to you to prove it wasnt'.

    As far as the paralegal giving legal advice. You should go with the attorney's advice over hers!@
    Chapter 7 Pro Se....Discharged Feb. 2006

    Comment


      #3
      To Denise1971

      I'm just going to pick apart some of your story and add "my take on it ..."

      We have about $68,000 in credit card debt and are hoping to file either 7 or 13.
      I had about the same amount, I went for Ch13 as the safest bet (you'll know why in a minute!)

      We don't have much equity in our home, so it doesn't look like it will be a problem keeping it.
      I didn't have any assets (except a new car) but I hope you can keep your home!

      The first paralegal we spoke with could not believe that we had a $30,000 line of credit from one credit card company, she said there was no way that they would have given this large amount to us without some kind of collateral to secure it.
      It sounds like you got a "consolidation loan," I had two myself equaling the same amount. I had my car (it was not the new one) as collateral - but the funny thing was it was not secured! So find out for sure on the original loan application! Also check with the creditor. I had called the creditor and the rep said my consolidation loan had no collateral!

      We have always had perfect credit and until the past couple of years just got in over our heads.We have all been there

      I called this CC company when we got home and they said it was a unsecured line of credit.
      Get a copy of that! If you can, my attorney wanted to make sure he had that in writing! Fortunately I saved my original loan. Definitely sounds like you got a consolidation loan!

      The paralegal we first spoke with wants us to file a chapter 13 with them and our payment is estimated to be somewhere around $500 a month for 5 years. The paralegal can make suggestions, but go by what your attorney thinks is best! The reason I filed Ch13:
      #1 I was worried about the recent debt I accumulated (like you!)
      I had just got a new cc of $10,000 and transferred the balance to pay off another cc than blew it at gambling!
      #2 I had 2 full time jobs, which put me over the median income for a single filer.


      ... he wants to wait till mid/end July before we file our bk.

      The more time you can put between you loan and other debts the safer bet, have you made a few payments yet to that loan?


      So my real question is, this large $30,000 loan we took out was mostly used to payoff other credit cards.
      Thats what I did with the loans I had from the banks. Paid off my creditors only to rack them back up again and still have the loans to pay off and the creditors. Bank statements and receipts will be all the proof you need IF needed. What you did with the loan is no different than what other people do when they borrow money to get out of debt or go gambling. If you bought a new car with some of the money THATS FINE! My car got flooded so I had to buy a new car, the insurance company gave me $1700 to replace the engine (they wouldn't total the car) I ended up selling my "no engine" car to my neighbor for a steal of deal: $500 it wasn't going to be worth crap to a dealer THATS FOR SURE. So with the $500 and the insurance money I went and bought a Hyundai Sonata a month before I filed: I had to show proof I was current if not a month ahead on my payments at the 341 meeting!

      last year I took out $22,500 from my 401k to pay on CC, if had any plans on filing a bk I sure wouldn't have thrown that money away.

      They will be losing around $30,000 and the rest is divided up among about 10 different companies. We both work tomorrow and will not have a chance to contact the attorney until next week. If anyone has any suggestions we would greatly appreciate them.


      PM me if you wish, I have much to comment as you case is very similiar to mine! Otherwise my response to this post would be much longer!

      Best wishes, Catchmeifyoucan
      July 2006: Filed Ch13 :blink:
      Oct 2006: Converted to Ch7 :clapping:
      Jan 2007: DISCHARGED :clapping:
      Nov 2007: CLOSED :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

      Comment


        #4
        Yes we have already made probably 6 or 7 payments on this loan. We have really had a hard time lately. I used to make $50,000 a year, then my employer "restructured" and now I'm making $33,000 a year. My wife and I both work, her place of employment has been really slow too. I am not lazy in the least bit, I work full time and pick up every side job I can. I even took a part time job working for a trash company, now thats humiliating for somebody who is a electronics technician, working on my days off for $6.80 an hour. I turned in a 1099 MISC last year on my tax's for $1700 from the trash company. I am going to school 3 to 4 nights a week so I can move up in our company so I can get back to making what I made years ago. I hope this BK goes through, surely the trustee can see that we are doing everything we can. We have a family of five and we make a few thousand dollars under the "median income" level for our state.

        Comment


          #5
          Well than you definitely might fall for a Ch7. My lawyer suggested I could quit one job and that would put in a 7 BUT because of the recent cash advance on the credit card (I received in MARCH than blew the cc up in APRIL - than filed in JULY of 06) I went for the 13. So the creditors/trustee would at least see that I was trying to pay them back. I barely made one payment on that cash advance. Its very good that you have had continuous payments on that loan. Thats one of the things the creditors look at and try to dispute fraud IF YOU HADN'T! My attorney explained to me the creditors could object but since I was filing Ch13 they wouldn't win because I was paying them back!

          Here was my lucky break: While I was on an unconfirmed plan because of my 2nd full time job, the Trustee wanted me to payback $800 a month instead of the $250 we proposed. The BK judge pretty much gave me a choice: Just quit one of my jobs and I could convert to Ch7 and pay nothing and wait for discharge or expect to payback $800 a month the next 5 years. I converted of course. Everything seemed to happen so fast after I decided to convert to 7. No creditors filed any objections - maybe I just confused them in the process WHO KNOWS. Even the creditor that I had just had that cash advance with!

          It doesn't happen to everyone, I think I just slid under the radar and with the new BK law just being implemented, creditors and trustees and judges alike were riding through "test cases," as they say. The pitfall to it all: When I quit one job I had to default on that 401k loan I had through payroll deduction (the whole $12,000) taxes hurt me pretty bad - I ended up owing additional 15% on the 401k in taxes but I got through it. I'd much rather see owing $4000 to the IRS than have to pay the creditors $65,000 - YOU KNOW.

          Yes its humiliating to have to lower yourself to make ends meet, but you are making an honest living compared to those out there that steal from others or do bad things to make ends meet. Be very proud of yourself for having a family and being able to raise them with an honest living.

          While you are preparing yourself for BK, I would open up a brand new bank account and if you have any direct deposits REDIRECT them into the new bank account. For example, my consolidation loans are tied to my checking/savings accounts as well as the majority of my credit cards. What they can do (called cross collateral) is automatically take out money from your checking/savings account and start applying the monies towards the debts you owe! They won't let you close the accounts because if you owe them elsewhere (via loans/credit cards they wont let you close those accounts) make sure you get all the statements you possibly can from those accounts (you wont have access after you file!) you might need those statements at the 341. Keep as little money in them. I kept $5 in each account. One of the accounts I had $10 and the creditor automatically took it and applied to one of the credit cards I owed on!

          Good Luck ! Catchmeifyoucan
          July 2006: Filed Ch13 :blink:
          Oct 2006: Converted to Ch7 :clapping:
          Jan 2007: DISCHARGED :clapping:
          Nov 2007: CLOSED :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

          Comment

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