So Check This Out

[danaf]

Today I called a doc preparer that I had thought I wanted to use to double check on what they wanted me to bring in.

last 2 years tax returns, last pay stub, credit report and any creditors who may not be on my credit report. that was it.

So I asked, among other things, what about a list of my personal property for the Schedule B? No, not neccessary I was told. You can keep all of your personal items - they don't need to be listed.

WTF?

I guess I'll be filling out my own forms.

[HHM]

Back up...in BK, personal property tends to refer to "household items". The preparer is correct in that you do not usually need to itemize those items. I suspect that is probably what this person was saying.

You do need to itemize MAJOR assets like house, cars, bank accounts, retirement, etc. But for general personal property, that is usually just listed as household items.

[danaf]

ok - but I also asked her if she needed $$ figures for my personal property (ie. household items) and again, she said no....not neccessary.

[HHM]

Although she is probably crossing the line as to legal advice, she is most likely simply using default values that are just under the allowed exemptions for your area.

But hey, you get what you pay for, you paid a document preparer...what did you expect.

When you go to the dollar store to buy groceries, do you really expect to get the same quality as if you went to Whole Food Market.

[FLBK7]

ok - but I also asked her if she needed $$ figures for my personal property (ie. household items) and again, she said no....not neccessary.

I filed under the old laws. My state's exemption for personal property/household items was limited to just $1K. My attorney made me list everything and assign a value. Not item by item, mind you -- but for example, I stated that my CD "collection" was worth $250 at flea-market prices, which is what they went by. Clothes, $200 at flea-market prices, etc.

Not sure if that has changed since then.

[danaf]

I didn't pay anything yet. So I expect nothing. And I also asked her if she would be using certain set values to which she said no - the court doesn't care about your personal property. But maybe I'll call her back tomorrow and double check this point.

[ssdsco]

I didn't pay anything yet. So I expect nothing. And I also asked her if she would be using certain set values to which she said no - the court doesn't care about your personal property. But maybe I'll call her back tomorrow and double check this point.

I don't think there's any dollar limit on furniture, clothes, church pew in NY so you probably don't need to list that stuff.

I am going to list my snow blower, generator, engagement ring (oh yea I lost it), PC, large screen TV so it would seem some personal property should be listed.

[danaf]

ssdsco - I thought personal property exemptions were $2500 for NY? & then $2500 cash?

Anyway, maybe I'm being too meticulous about all of this. Maybe I should just throw caution to the wind - kwim?

[ssdsco]

My BK is on hold for another year so I'm not in contact with my attorney but I thought he said there's no limit on furniture and clothes needed for the family. I think the $2500 is a cap on recent annuity purchases or something like that.

[danaf]

I just read your post about your situation. Good thing you have an active trustee as an attorney - it is good for your confidence and sounds like he will get you through no prob. These days turning assets into exempt assets can be tricky but I'm glad that you are doing this.

[ameliabedilia]

danaf- did you get my message? I found the website for the bk software.

[kornellred]

My attorney asked about all of my personal property - clothes, furniture, electronic items, CD'S, DVD's, and my model railroad collection - and we estimated a value for the whole lot - which, obviously, is much less than the total of the actual prices paid. I asked why this was necessary, since I would be keeping it all and filing Chapter 13; he said that we needed to make sure that the Chapter 13 payments would exceed the total amount that would be garnered from liquidation of my personal property. That's almost inevitable except for rare cases where a filer has extremely valuable items that are unnecessary and could be sold for significant amounts of money.
It's part of a thorough investigation that a decent BK attorney would conduct. I don't know the obstacles faced by the pro se filer, but very close scrutiny by the trustee is almost assured.

[danaf]

I agree, which is why I'd rather err on the side of caution.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

My attorney asked about all of my personal property - clothes, furniture, electronic items, CD'S, DVD's, and my model railroad collection - and we estimated a value for the whole lot - which, obviously, is much less than the total of the actual prices paid. I asked why this was necessary, since I would be keeping it all and filing Chapter 13; he said that we needed to make sure that the Chapter 13 payments would exceed the total amount that would be garnered from liquidation of my personal property. That's almost inevitable except for rare cases where a filer has extremely valuable items that are unnecessary and could be sold for significant amounts of money.
It's part of a thorough investigation that a decent BK attorney would conduct. I don't know the obstacles faced by the pro se filer, but very close scrutiny by the trustee is almost assured.

Interesting thought, Kornellred. I actually don't know if I agree with it or not, can't make up my mind! *laugh*

In my own pro se case, I didn't have question one about anything I declared... but I was armed to the teeth with documentation if I did. (Made me feel better even if in the end it was unneeded.) Also, I broke out my household goods as FLBK7 described, and separately itemized anything over $50. So there really wasn't anything for the trustee to ask for: I threw it all out there up front.

However, in the end it's really up to the trustee. Keep in mind that the trustee has to document his concerns in changing a no-asset case to an asset case, and it can't just be on a whim. While I am well aware of the hordes of people in the world who assume that anyone without an atty is fair game (esp in the workplace!) for a trustee to take that stand in bk cases would be rather dangerous, because he would have no way of knowing *what else* that filer might have going for him: for instance, maybe some badly dressed non-English speaking Cuban in Miami goes pro se to bk court... and his aunt's brother in law is mayor of Miami. You just never know.

I'm not saying that every trustee is above reproach... only that he would be pretty stupid just to pick on a filer for being pro se. I mean, look at the talent level *here*. I know this isn't average, but...

[hendry70]

My attorney even asked if I had any pets, (apparently if you own any expensive animals, the trustee could possibly take them) and we listed my cat at 50 bucks. Although I can assure you she's priceless to me.