What do you think of this?? please read

[notappreciated]

I'm a new poster. My mother has filed for bankruptcy. She tried hiding it for a while but eventually the truth came out. I understand why she would want to hide it even though I didn't exactly appreciate it but that was her choice. Afterall, it is her business and her problem.

I need to know what fellow people think of this situation. This, in my opinion, is stealing and if not stealing than very immoral and plain wrong.

Here's the situation:

-my mother filed for bankruptcy (at this time i had no clue)
-my mother offers to charge an item of mine on her credit card even after she filed (the creditors told her to max out the cards)
-the deal was i would pay her back for it
-i pay her back the money after she asks for it assuming it is going towards the purchase but in reality it wasnt
-so even though i owed her the money, she didnt have to put it towards her card and went in her pocket instead.
-she doesnt see the wrong in this and thinks it was o.k for me to still give her the money towards her bankruptcy fees as she claims its the same thing as me owing her for the items she charged
-in my eyes, it isn't, because she took the money and put it towards something that i didnt know about even though she clearly knew it wasn't going to the credit card

What do you make of this? Is this not fraud or stealing of some kind? I feel as though she made this money off of me because she knew it wasn't going towards any charge. Yes,you still pay bankruptcy fees but the money I gave her was way more than enough to cover even a months worth of her fees. I don't feel as though I should have to pay for that.

Let me also mention that my mother had approximately $50,000 in credit card debt alone that was basically spent towards nothing of value (knick knacks, luxurious items) useless spending that had no meaning at all - its not like she had to pay for medical or a mortgage or anything.

theres a lot more to this but i just want a general opinion on the situation above.

thanks for everyones opinion!

[chpxiii]

My opinion is that you're judging your mother.

If you feel she has committed fraud you could contact the bankruptcy court she filed in and present your evidence.

[Flamingo]

Your mother probably has a shopping addiction and looks toward charging items for comfort. Also, reality probably finally hit her along with the embarrassment of it all when she had to file and she lied to you in order to get cash in hand for filing fees. Also the creditors did not tell her to max out her cards, that was an excuse she gave you. She apparently was going throuogh and is going through a very emotional time and was hit with all this at once and of course embarrassed. You can do as chpxiii suggests if it bothers you or you can seek help and guidance for your mother to get to the root of the problem. She may have no one else to turn to.

[kiddles]

Borrowing money (which you do when you make a purchase on a credit card) with no intent to pay, knowing you won't/can't pay is certainly fraud.

If she's in a Chap 13, she'd need the trustee's OK to incur a new (or increased) debt. If she's in a Chap 7, debt incurred after filing isn't discharged, so she still owes it.

If she's acting like that, I agree - she may have a shopping addiction. It'd be hard to talk to her about, but might be very important that someone talk with her.

[buchanj]

I'm a new poster. My mother has filed for bankruptcy. She tried hiding it for a while but eventually the truth came out. I understand why she would want to hide it even though I didn't exactly appreciate it but that was her choice. Afterall, it is her business and her problem.

I need to know what fellow people think of this situation. This, in my opinion, is stealing and if not stealing than very immoral and plain wrong.

Here's the situation:

-my mother filed for bankruptcy (at this time i had no clue)
-my mother offers to charge an item of mine on her credit card even after she filed (the creditors told her to max out the cards)
-the deal was i would pay her back for it
-i pay her back the money after she asks for it assuming it is going towards the purchase but in reality it wasnt
-so even though i owed her the money, she didnt have to put it towards her card and went in her pocket instead.
-she doesnt see the wrong in this and thinks it was o.k for me to still give her the money towards her bankruptcy fees as she claims its the same thing as me owing her for the items she charged
-in my eyes, it isn't, because she took the money and put it towards something that i didnt know about even though she clearly knew it wasn't going to the credit card

What do you make of this? Is this not fraud or stealing of some kind? I feel as though she made this money off of me because she knew it wasn't going towards any charge. Yes,you still pay bankruptcy fees but the money I gave her was way more than enough to cover even a months worth of her fees. I don't feel as though I should have to pay for that.

Let me also mention that my mother had approximately $50,000 in credit card debt alone that was basically spent towards nothing of value (knick knacks, luxurious items) useless spending that had no meaning at all - its not like she had to pay for medical or a mortgage or anything.

theres a lot more to this but i just want a general opinion on the situation above.

thanks for everyones opinion!

my mother offers to charge an item of mine on her credit card even after she filed (the creditors told her to max out the cards)hmmm, if she charged an item after she files I do believe she will need to pay it back unless the imaginary creditors who told her to max out the cards back her up on that or if she has evidence.

It comes down to whether or not you pay her back. Are you entitled to something free? If not pay her back and let her deal with the morality.

[chpxiii]

It comes down to whether or not you pay her back. Are you entitled to something free? If not pay her back and let her deal with the morality.

Completely agree with this.

[woeisme]

If it is as you say that she ran up this charge after filing, it will not be discharged, so she is going to have to pay it, which means that she did not do anything morally wrong, and that she did not steal from you or the creditors.

If she ran up the charge pre-filing, as sounds more likely since her credit cards would have been cancelled the moment the BK filing notices got sent out to the creditors, then she took a real risk with her BK filing, and the creditors may object to her discharge, meaning she may still have to pay them back, she just won't know until the time limit for objections passes. It was especially risky if, as you say, this amount was so high that it allowed her to pay her BK fees, since those run thousands of dollars, so the possibility of a creditor objecting is high.

Either way, you owed her the money. What she does with it is her financial business. You got the item that was purchased, so she didn't cheat you in any way, she cheated her creditor, and very well might have to pay the price if they object to her BK discharge.

[notappreciated]

Thanks for everyones opinion. I guess its difficult to relate exactly to what I'm feeling and trying to discuss here because theres a lot of issues going on with my mother and our relationship.

I know that what she did wasn't exactly stealing..I've had a lot of people think it isn't..but those who know my mother and the situation better know that she did this to me intentionally so she could take the money. Yes she offered to put my items on her credit card but why would she do that considering the situation she was in and knowing she wouldn't pay it back? And when I paid her back, she knew the money wouldnt go to the charges..so yes that alone really bothers me and was the tip of the iceberg for our relationship. Not only that but the fact that she won't admit her mistakes and act like this is o.k I know bankruptcy isn't easy to go through (not that I've been there but I can only imagine)..but the fact that she doesnt think bankruptcy is serious shows me that she doesnt care about what shes done. A few weeks ago she went out and bought a new LCD computer monitor which she clearly cant afford (and this is after she filed but at the time I didn't know about it). Once I found out about the bankruptcy, I asked her why she would buy the monitor when a) shes struggling to even pay the monthly bankruptcy fees b) she makes very little money at her job c) she doesnt use the computer enough to need a new monitor...i tried to help her understand that that money could have put towards her fees or a savings but she refused to listen and claimed it wasnt a big deal...maybe you guys will agree but to me, it is a big deal because even after shes filed, shes still not taking responsibility for what shes done to change her life around. does that make sense?

in addition to that, there are many other issues that i need to deal with and when you pile all of them together, its huge and i dont want to deal with it anymore..me as well as my other siblings have tried helping her (build a savings, teach her about money etc) and she doesnt want to hear it so how can i sit here and help someone who doesnt want to be helped?? not to mention that im a university student working 2 jobs to get by and not once has she helped me with tuition and she knows i will have student loan debt...in my opinion, she could have at least helped me through a little of that instead of racking up credit card charges on useless items..i dont want to offend anyone on here because im sure bankruptcy is bigger than i know and posters on here deal with it first hand. i dont know..hopefully this makes sense and you're getting my drift here.

its hard to post my thoughts (on other forums, not here) and have posters tell me I'M the one to blame because im not helping her and im butting into her business...i clearly dont want any of the bankruptcy to be my problem but the lying, backstabbing etc that goes along with it has affected me and i think i deserve an apology for that..i just thought that because she hit a major low, she would see the issue more clear but apparently not.

[CindyLou]

Hi notappreciated,

I am sorry you are going through this. Yes, what your mother did was wrong and it was stealing. But....in the whole scheme of things, it really wouldn't make a difference. For you own sanity it probably better to just drop it and move on.

Just know that if there was a pattern of this type of behavior then the trustee or the creditors are going to pick up on it so quick her head will spin and she will have to answer to them.

This is a much bigger issue and I'm sure this just scratches this surface, which I know you can clearly see. This BK will be a good think for her because at least it will stop her in her tracks as far as gettting most credit (hopefully).

Have you suggested any 12 step programs to her like Shopaholics anonymous? One thing you may need to do right now is seek some type of counseling. I am the sister of a drug addict/alcoholic. This co-dependent relationship you have with your mother is not different that my relationship with my brother. My brother's drugs were his meth, cocaine, and beer. Your mother's drugs are her credit cards! Apparently, she has not hit rock bottom yet.

Welcome to the forum and hopefully we can help.

Cindy

[buchanj]

Live your own life and let her live hers. Put the cross down...its heavy!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Cindylynnsmith, you hit the nail on the head:

Have you suggested any 12 step programs to her like Shopaholics anonymous? One thing you may need to do right now is seek some type of counseling. I am the sister of a drug addict/alcoholic. This co-dependent relationship you have with your mother is not different that my relationship with my brother. My brother's drugs were his meth, cocaine, and beer. Your mother's drugs are her credit cards! Apparently, she has not hit rock bottom yet.

Notappreciated, as much as it bothers you that your mother did this, I think it probably bothers you *just as much* that you let her. That's my guess, obviously I can't see into your heart, but from what you write you're not just angry with her for pulling you into a transaction that she knew would bother you, you're angry with yourself because maybe you think you could have done something differently to avoid the situation.

If that's the case, may I offer a suggestion from someone who's been there? SEPARATE YOUR FINANCES. Once and for all. Forever. No back and forth, no loan and repay, no nothing. She does what she does on her dime, and you do what you do on your own dime, and never the two will meet.

When you're sucked into someone else's bad behavior, whether it's drinking or drugging or shopping or sex or whatever it may be, it will *always* feel twisted and you will *always* be wondering what the hell just happened... until you cut off your ownership of their behavior. When how your mother spends her money ceases to anger and upset you and put you into a spin, that's when you know you're free. You will always be sad about it, you will always see it as a completely tragic waste, but it's not *your* tragedy and you can't fix it, any more than Cindy can fix her brother or I can fix my alcoholic relatives.

The best I can do is live MY life, and as long as I'm living theirs, even vicariously, I am robbing from my own. I've had to learn how not to, and please forgive me, but I think you do too. Buchanj said it: man, that cross is heavy. But you can start with separating your finances entirely, and moving forward to understand how it was that you got sucked into it, because it doesn't sound like this is your mom's first trip on the merry go round (though it may well be her first bk) and from there into how you live free of manipulation. It's difficult, but it can be done.

I do not mean a single word of this as any kind of judgement or criticism toward you, please don't take it as such! It's just that in all your mom did and is doing, you're the one with a problem... so look to yourself to fix it. You can't fix her or change what she does (hence your frustration: your in an unwinnable situation with her right now) but you can sure change how you handle it! And I think it will be a very happy discovery.

Good luck and best wishes!!!

[One Half Full]

I'd say if she asks again tell her "No." It is your credit card, not hers. Parents do get a sort of pass card because they did spend lots of money and go broke supporting us. I think a little reasonable sympathy is needed. I don't understand how creditors could tell her to max out her cards. It sounds like someone is giving her nutty advice. I agree w/ some who say she sounds like she may be addicted to shopping. As far as stealing again that is debatable. If you gave someone 50 cents to buy a comic book and they bought candy, would that be stealing? No. You freely gave the 50 cents. What the person is guilty of is not following instructions, or changing her mind or something like that. Best not to lend money to a person like that.

[CindyLou]

I'd say if she asks again tell her "No." It is your credit card, not hers. Parents do get a sort of pass card because they did spend lots of money and go broke supporting us. I think a little reasonable sympathy is needed. I don't understand how creditors could tell her to max out her cards. It sounds like someone is giving her nutty advice. I agree w/ some who say she sounds like she may be addicted to shopping. As far as stealing again that is debatable. If you gave someone 50 cents to buy a comic book and they bought candy, would that be stealing? No. You freely gave the 50 cents. What the person is guilty of is not following instructions, or changing her mind or something like that. Best not to lend money to a person like that.

I think what happened was the MOTHER had purchased an item for the DAUGHTHER, then had the daughter give the mother the cash for the item, the the mother did NOT pay the credit card in anticipation of filing BK........ In essence the mother committed fraud against the creditor using the daughter as a pass through....

Did I get it right?

[notappreciated]

I think what happened was the MOTHER had purchased an item for the DAUGHTHER, then had the daughter give the mother the cash for the item, the the mother did NOT pay the credit card in anticipation of filing BK........ In essence the mother committed fraud against the creditor using the daughter as a pass through....

Did I get it right?

Yeah, you did get it right!

[notappreciated]

Cindylynnsmith, you hit the nail on the head:


Notappreciated, as much as it bothers you that your mother did this, I think it probably bothers you *just as much* that you let her. That's my guess, obviously I can't see into your heart, but from what you write you're not just angry with her for pulling you into a transaction that she knew would bother you, you're angry with yourself because maybe you think you could have done something differently to avoid the situation.

If that's the case, may I offer a suggestion from someone who's been there? SEPARATE YOUR FINANCES. Once and for all. Forever. No back and forth, no loan and repay, no nothing. She does what she does on her dime, and you do what you do on your own dime, and never the two will meet.

When you're sucked into someone else's bad behavior, whether it's drinking or drugging or shopping or sex or whatever it may be, it will *always* feel twisted and you will *always* be wondering what the hell just happened... until you cut off your ownership of their behavior. When how your mother spends her money ceases to anger and upset you and put you into a spin, that's when you know you're free. You will always be sad about it, you will always see it as a completely tragic waste, but it's not *your* tragedy and you can't fix it, any more than Cindy can fix her brother or I can fix my alcoholic relatives.

The best I can do is live MY life, and as long as I'm living theirs, even vicariously, I am robbing from my own. I've had to learn how not to, and please forgive me, but I think you do too. Buchanj said it: man, that cross is heavy. But you can start with separating your finances entirely, and moving forward to understand how it was that you got sucked into it, because it doesn't sound like this is your mom's first trip on the merry go round (though it may well be her first bk) and from there into how you live free of manipulation. It's difficult, but it can be done.

I do not mean a single word of this as any kind of judgement or criticism toward you, please don't take it as such! It's just that in all your mom did and is doing, you're the one with a problem... so look to yourself to fix it. You can't fix her or change what she does (hence your frustration: your in an unwinnable situation with her right now) but you can sure change how you handle it! And I think it will be a very happy discovery.

Good luck and best wishes!!!

Thanks everyone for their posts! This is a really awkward time..it's difficult to deal with. I don't want to be involved but I guess seeing as she's my mother, I feel like I need to help her. However, I'm slowly learning to let it go and let her help herself.

I'm not really mad at myself...at times I do feel like a fool for falling into the traps shes set for me but I know that she's the one feeling that way now even if shes too immature to admit it. But nonetheless, I have no anger towards myself because well, I didn't do anything wrong. It's her and the way she lives that makes me mad. But again, I'm learning to get over it and with each day that passes, I don't feel as bothered. Of course, you never truly get over something as it lives with you forever but I feel stronger in the fact that I can move on without her. She's doing this to herself and she can't blame anyone for that.

I've posted on other forums (like I mentioned before) and I'm sooo surprised at the amount of people who think I'm being the pesky little brat here. At this point I'm more frustrated with these people's posts than my mother! Its ridiculous how many names and comments have been thrown at me..I just think..can't they see the problem here?! I apologize but it really frustrates me! One person even said I'm just as manipulative as her because the way I'm posting sounds like I'm trying to win people over and be on "my side". Oh and I can't forget the comment about me sitting on my whiney a** and complaining too much when my mother needs help..WHAT! Anyways....

Thanks for everyones posts...they were meaningful and really helped me see that I am not to blame, this isn't my fault, this her problem and I can't attempt to help her if she doesn't want to see the change for herself.