if you are below the median... how important is?

[Catia]

knew it all
---what is I & J for??? I'm wanting to hear!
Sorry if I need it spelled out for myself--But I do. Don't wanna take the risk of reading into the innuendo wrong. Sometimes reading what it written and hearing what is spoken are 2 different things--I wanna know exactly what you meant--my listening ears are on !!!

[Knew_it_all]

The lawyer who filed my bk {old law} told me a few months back, he refused to file a 7 for a prospective client. Here's the situation. Single, about 30K worth of cc debt and making $10/hour. He had practically no expenses. His parents were letting hin live in a house they owned rent free and paid his utilities. His only expenses were, food and gas and entertainment. He ended up with several hundred/month in disposable income and that would never fly in our district.

Ok, Ok, this is getting out of control...seriously boys and girls..Am I the only one here that can A: read, B: do arithmetic?

News Flash! News Flash! If you are living under interstate 70 in a cardboard box you get to claim the IRS STANDARD FOR YOUR AREA in housing costs! It is hard to believe your attorney didn't know this. Your attorney is obviously one of the many, many attorneys that posters ***** about as being incompetent...

Again, if you <actually> completed a Form B22a worksheet correctly, you would know this!

[keepmine]

The issue is not, the IRS standard expenses. The problem is, what are you going to do about several hundred dollars a month in disposable income? That money just does not disappear.

[jp2861]

The issue is not, the IRS standard expenses. The problem is, what are you going to do about several hundred dollars a month in disposable income? That money just does not disappear.

Thank you! Why the poster that seems to know it all is bringing IRS standards into the picture is beyond me. If I'm below the median the standards aren't even a player. No presumption of abuse is a gimme. However, disposable income is not a free ride.

Someone responded to him asking what the I & J is for, if you're under the median, but that question not answered either.

I'm still waiting for knew_it_all to provide some stats though. If he can prove his point I will gladly eat crow and stay out of the discussion.

[Knew_it_all]

IRS <expense> standards are automatically given to every Chapter 7 filer. These expenses include housing expenses (rent/mortgages), utilities, food, automobile/transportation operating expenses (even if you don't have an auto!) and quite a few other <expenses>..Again, EVERYONE is allocated these <basic> expenses..You get to <deduct> these expenses from your gross monthly income. In addition, you get to deduct such things as health insurance premiums, federal and state income taxes and a bunch of other <monthly expenses>. Still with me??? Good!

Now, regarding the mathematical algorithm...A simple flow chart of mostly addition and subtraction that determines your <disposable income>...The flow chart is designed so that IF you are under the Median income for your location, the total of all the IRS standard expenses that your are entitled to, plus your debts and other monthly expenses will preclude you from qualifying for a Chapter 13 Bankruptcy. It is that simple. You will not even have $100 bucks left a month! Why? Because even if you are living in a cardboard box under the interstate, and walking everywhere, the Means Test Calculation worksheet will give you hundreds and hundreds of dollars in <expenses> to offset any income you may have.

If after this incredibly precise and intelligent discourse on the Means Test you still <don't get it>, you just might <possibly> not have the <cognitive horsepower> to follow this discussion. There is a <reason> believe it or not, why attorneys have in general, IQ's about two deviation from the norm....in other words..maybe you can't comprehend this!
No shame, after all, that is why most people (not all, but most) have to see an attorney for their bankruptcy issues...All an attorney does is <explain> the law to you and in a way the you can understand it...why? because you can't <get it> on your own...

[Knew_it_all]

The issue is not, the IRS standard expenses. The problem is, what are you going to do about several hundred dollars a month in disposable income? That money just does not disappear.

Well, actually it does..But where?? It actually <evaporates> into the standard IRS deductions..!!! If it <doesn't> the ONLY reason why is..........because the petitioner is OVER the median income!!!

Please, please at least <attempt> filing out a Form B22a before you post!! Thanks a Bunch!!

[Knew_it_all]

Whew!!

[no_it_all]

I agree with that KIA.. ;-)

[no_it_all]

Hey, you have to understand that most of the people on this board think a <tax refund> is added to their income!!!!!!!! sad, soooo sad...

[Knew_it_all]

knew it all
---what is I & J for??? I'm wanting to hear!
Sorry if I need it spelled out for myself--But I do. Don't wanna take the risk of reading into the innuendo wrong. Sometimes reading what it written and hearing what is spoken are 2 different things--I wanna know exactly what you meant--my listening ears are on !!!

Ah, sorry...that was more for dramatic effect than anything else...but, do you have a question about those schedules??

[Knew_it_all]

Schedule J is probably the most important form you'll fill out. It determines whether you'll end up in a 7 or 13.

ROTFLMAO

For your edification:

From Bankruptcy-lawyers.com
Eligibility for Chapter 7
Beginning October 17, 2005, under the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005, you must undergo a "means test" to qualify for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. The "means test" is how the Internal Revenue Service will determine who can or cannot file for Chapter 7. Your income and expenses are examined in detail to see how they compare to the standard for your area as set by the IRS. If you earn less than the median income for a family of your size in your state, you can automatically file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. But if your income from the last six months is greater than the median income and you can pay at least $6,000 over five years or $100 a month toward your debt, you are not allowed to file for Chapter 7 but must file for Chapter 13 instead. Chapter 13 will require you to repay a portion of your debts over three to five years.

<Ok now, to fully understand and comprehend the preceding statements you need to know the difference between the boolean AND, OR statements....one is inclusive, one is exclusive..see! That is why you need a lawyer!!!!>

Current Article
“Median Income” & “Means Test” - Important terms defined
By Jonathan Ginsberg, Atlanta Bankruptcy Attorney on Jan 26, 2007 in Bankruptcy Practice and Procedure, General Bankruptcy Information
Two terms that you may see frequently when you are learning about bankruptcy are “median income test” and “means test.” You will be able to make better decisions about filing bankruptcy and about choosing a lawyer if you understand what these terms mean. Here are brief definitions:
Median income test - in cases where your debt is primarily consumer (not business) debt, the Bankruptcy Code requires that you calculate something called your “median income” and compare it to the median income for a similarly sized family in your State. Stated simply, you calculate your median income by adding together your gross income for the six months prior to the current month and divide by 6. For example, if you are filing in January, you use July through December’s gross income numbers. If your average monthly income using this formula is below the average monthly income for a similarly sized family, you pass the median income test and you may proceed to file either Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 without further means test calculations.

NOW do you understand??? There is NO PROVISION in bankruptcy law for someone that is UNDER the median to even CALCULATE their disposable income for the purpose of pushing them into a Chapter 13........That ENTIRE process is accomplished on where again? Oh yeah, on the Means Test Calculation form B22a...Which since you are kicked out at line 15, you don't even GET TO if under the Median..

[butterflywings]

Ok, Ok, this is getting out of control...seriously boys and girls..Am I the only one here that can A: read, B: do arithmetic?

News Flash! News Flash!

Knew it all, if rudeness is the only demeanor you can bring to the table here then perhaps you should leave and start up your own site that gives out BK information.

People must take you for a grain of salt in your offline life for you to be so rude on here. Otherwise you would be able to give your opinions in a more adult manner.

To everyone else the trustee has it in his discretion to take into account the totality of the filer's circumstances.

[Knew_it_all]

To everyone else the trustee has it in his discretion to take into account the totality of the filer's circumstances.

Correct...BUT his/her decisions MUST be within the statutes of United States Code Title 11. Filing while under the median precludes the trustee from ever legally making a determination of abuse and requiring a conversion to Chapter 13 ..That is why it is referred to as Bankruptcy LAW and not <my local trustee opinion>..............so there!

[keepmine]

Of course you can file the 7 but, getting a discharge is a different matter. This lawyer has a different opinion.

http://www.seattle-washington-bankruptcy-lawyer.com/4.html

[diviaruba]

Of course you can file the 7 but, getting a discharge is a different matter. This lawyer has a different opinion.

http://www.seattle-washington-bankruptcy-lawyer.com/4.html

Agreed. Sec. 707(b)(3) provides for dismissal if the granting of relief would be an abuse of the bankruptcy law. If the means tests is passed, then the abuse can be based on whether the petition was filed in bad faith or under the totality of the circumstances the debtor's financial situation demonstrates abuse. Under these circumstances the case may be dismissed (or the debtor might be forced to convert to Chapter 13) even if the means test shows no abuse and no excess income, but the actual current income and expenses, with consideration of expected changes in the budget, shows disposable income available to pay unsecured creditors.