if you are below the median... how important is?

[Elle615]

If you're filing Chapter 7 and are below the median how important are some of the questions on Schedule J?

Specifically, the one's that ask you to list what you've paid to various creditors for the past year.

Should I worry if I don't know the answer to some questions?

Thank you!

[One Half Full]

I don't know the answer to your question, but you can get transcripts of your banking records for the year, you can get transcripts of all payments from your creditors also. They would have a record of payments made, even if you don't.

[Knew_it_all]

If you're filing Chapter 7 and are below the median how important are some of the questions on Schedule J?

Not very....You will have to pass the <quick glance> and that is about it.........On edit, it would helpful to know on what line of the Means Test it kicked out the ole....Presumption of Abuse Does Not Exist..

[jp2861]

Not very....You will have to pass the <quick glance> and that is about it.........On edit, it would helpful to know on what line of the Means Test it kicked out the ole....Presumption of Abuse Does Not Exist..

Schedule J is probably the most important form you'll fill out. It determines whether you'll end up in a 7 or 13.

[Knew_it_all]

Schedule J is probably the most important form you'll fill out. It determines whether you'll end up in a 7 or 13.

Incorrect...Clearly written by someone that has never filled out a B22a form, or doesn't understand the Means Test Calculations...Or both...Schedule J only has <some> importance depending where on the means test schedule you were kicked out as having <No Presumption of Abuse>...to wit: Look at line 15..if you are kicked out there, you don't even fill out the rest of the form. NOBODY under the median has ever, ever been pushed into a Chapter 13...Nobody...

What you <probably> meant to say is that if one is over the median income there is a possibility that they <may> not qualify for a Chapter 7 if they have a huge amount of disposable income. Under those circumstances, schedule J will have greater importance. Since the original poster is under the median, Schedule J is ..........moot

[Knew_it_all]

Should I worry if I don't know the answer to some questions?

For example????

[Cali]

Incorrect...Clearly written by someone that has never filled out a B22a form, or doesn't understand the Means Test Calculations...Or both...Schedule J only has <some> importance depending where on the means test schedule you were kicked out as having <No Presumption of Abuse>...to wit: Look at line 15..if you are kicked out there, you don't even fill out the rest of the form. NOBODY under the median has ever, ever been pushed into a Chapter 13...Nobody...

What you <probably> meant to say is that if one is over the median income there is a possibility that they <may> not qualify for a Chapter 7 if they have a huge amount of disposable income. Under those circumstances, schedule J will have greater importance. Since the original poster is under the median, Schedule J is ..........moot

Well said!!

[pa308]

Well said!!

This is one question that I can never seem to totally wrap my head around. I am under the median as well for PA, line 15 0f 22a. I have asked/read here over and again that just because you are under the median that you can still be pushed into a 13 if your disposable income on sch j is more than 100$. Actually had posted this same type of question this past week. I dont get much reassurance based on all the different interpretations here.

[tay666]

This is one question that I can never seem to totally wrap my head around. I am under the median as well for PA, line 15 0f 22a. I have asked/read here over and again that just because you are under the median that you can still be pushed into a 13 if your disposable income on sch j is more than 100$. Actually had posted this same type of question this past week. I dont get much reassurance based on all the different interpretations here.

The way the law is written, evien if you are under the median income.
IF you have more than $100 disposable income you can be pushed into a 13.
Technically it can happen.
Realistically we here on the board have no proof if it has ever actually happened or not.
While this board is fairly large it is only a small percentage of all personal BK cases.
So while there has been no first hand proof of this happening to anyone who has ever posted here, it is better to err on the side of caution. So most posters here who are familiar with the situation will warn about the possiblitly.
There are many possibilities in a BK case that rarely if ever actually happen (like a trustee actually physically auditing you personal posessions) But it is better to be aware of the issue and not have it happen. Than to be totally blindsided if you happen to get a PITA trustee who wants to follow the letter of the BK code.

[Knew_it_all]

The way the law is written, evien if you are under the median income.
IF you have more than $100 disposable income you can be pushed into a 13.

Your understanding of the law is incorrect. Passing the means test as a result of being below the median income will NEVER result in being <pushed> into a Chapter 13..That is why they call it <passing the test> and not <passing the test and maybe being later hit with a Chapter 13)...It is an internet fable, nothing more.

[jp2861]

Your understanding of the law is incorrect. Passing the means test as a result of being below the median income will NEVER result in being <pushed> into a Chapter 13..That is why they call it <passing the test> and not <passing the test and maybe being later hit with a Chapter 13)...It is an internet fable, nothing more.

Simply not correct!

Passing the means test just says that there is no presumption of abuse...period. It does NOT have anything to do with filing a Ch7 or Ch13. If I'm below the median and have (ex) $400 in disposable income I can be forced into a Ch13. Being below the median does not make a filing an automatic Ch7. If that was the case then there'd be absolutely no need to file Sch I & J. However, regardless of being above or below the median, disposable income WILL make the determination of which chapter to file. That's where the I & J come into play. The bottom line is that being below the median is not an automatic ticket to a Ch7. Even if you're below the median you still need to prove to the trustee/court that you don't have the income to fund a Ch13. That's why you file the I & J.

You claim NOBODY that has filed below the median has ever been pushed into a 13. Please back that up with statistics. I'd love to see this as a fact and not just opinion.

[jp2861]

The way the law is written, evien if you are under the median income.
IF you have more than $100 disposable income you can be pushed into a 13.
Technically it can happen.
Realistically we here on the board have no proof if it has ever actually happened or not.
While this board is fairly large it is only a small percentage of all personal BK cases.
So while there has been no first hand proof of this happening to anyone who has ever posted here, it is better to err on the side of caution. So most posters here who are familiar with the situation will warn about the possiblitly.
There are many possibilities in a BK case that rarely if ever actually happen (like a trustee actually physically auditing you personal posessions) But it is better to be aware of the issue and not have it happen. Than to be totally blindsided if you happen to get a PITA trustee who wants to follow the letter of the BK code.

You're right, this board represents just a small percentage of those filing. The law is pretty clear as to exactly what you said though. Disposable income is the deciding factor.

[Knew_it_all]

Even if you're below the median you still need to prove to the trustee/court that you don't have the income to fund a Ch13.

Incorrect. Again, clearly written by someone that has never properly filled out Form B22a or does not understand bankruptcy procedure (or both). To wit: The <median income> theshold TAKES INTO ACCOUNT ALL THE IRS STANDARDS THAT ARE GIVE TO A DEBTOR. Please read that again. What does it mean? It means, that if you are UNDER THE MEDIAN..you go straight to Chapter 7 BECAUSE..you CAN'T have disposable income left.. Why? Because if you subtract all the IRS <standard deductions> to your monthly income, plus your debts.. You will NOT have enough left to go into a Chapter 13!!!!!

To break it down even more: You live in Alabama your are a family of three. You make $51,000 dollars a year, $150 UNDER the median.. When you reach line 15 on the Means Test, you go right to Part VIII...do you know what that part is? It is where you sign it!!! You are DONE!!

You get to skip ALL THOSE OTHER PARTS THAT REQUIRE YOU TO INPUT NUMBERS. Why? Because if you took the STANDARD IRS DEDUCTIONS and input those numbers, guess what??? You would NOT HAVE ENOUGH DISPOSABLE INCOME TO PAY A CHAPTER 13 !

It is a very, very simple mathematical algorithm, designed to do what? Quickly determine if someone can pay their bills in a Chapter 13 or not! Otherwise THERE WOULD BE NO MEANS TEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me started on what Schedule I and J are really for! (hint: it isn't to see which under median filers can be pushed into Chapter 13 <rolls eyes>)........

[Knew_it_all]

You claim NOBODY that has filed below the median has ever been pushed into a 13. Please back that up with statistics. I'd love to see this as a fact and not just opinion.

Seriously, It is great that you want facts and not opinions. Too many people confuse the two, and that can be bad...Take most of what you read here with a grain of salt and do your own research...good luck! Oh, and understand that in law (even bankruptcy law) NOTHING is crystal clear. That is why we have lawyers to do what? Oh yes! Argue the law!

[keepmine]

I agree with jp. 707 of the code does provide for circumstances where you can be denied a Chapter 7 discharge if you have sufficient disposable income to fund a Chapter 13. It's rare, but it can happen.
The lawyer who filed my bk {old law} told me a few months back, he refused to file a 7 for a prospective client. Here's the situation. Single, about 30K worth of cc debt and making $10/hour. He had practically no expenses. His parents were letting hin live in a house they owned rent free and paid his utilities. His only expenses were, food and gas and entertainment. He ended up with several hundred/month in disposable income and that would never fly in our district.