creditor threatening to reopen bankruptcy case for CC fraud?

[roki]

Seems to me that the OP obtained a discharge on a debt that could be civilaly placed on the OP in the future. This would have the effect of ensuring that OP will never be obligated to pay it, but wouldn't cover any criminal liability.

Your mom is not legally liable for the debt because it was fraud, you are not legally liable because you had a smart attorney that got it to stay included in the discharge. The creditor may be able to press criminal charges, but they don't have a leg to stand on, you have the defense of your medical records, the defense that the very proof they are trying to use against you if they had looked at it originally they would have known it was fraud, yet they continued to allow it, and why would they go through the trouble and expense of criminal court when they STILL will never have a leg to stand on to get a dime from anyone.

I would wait for the next time they contact you, and remind them ONE time that they are permanently forbidden from attempted to collect this debt, and that if they contact you again YOU intend on reporting the debt collection activities.

Note: I am not an attorney, and can only give my opinion.

But in order to charge me Criminally they have to reopen the Bankruptcy case because that debt even if it was obtain by forgery or under False Pretence was completely discharge thru due process so in terms of any DA the debt does not exist. There is also a question of Jurisdiction on this . The card was obtained in 2001 and the act was commited in Puerto rico and in Puerto rico this situation has prescribed. I know that in Puerto rico no DA will even look at this????? Debt does not EXIST???????????


And by the way the card was obtained by false pretences only they received payments on it from 2001-2004 so there was no intention to defraud????? No crime. The only crime was commited against my mother and she is not going to press charges???????

[roki]

Also be reminded that the bankruptcy court is a legal Forum and the code specifically said that if the creditor wants to take any kind of legal action while the debt is in Bankruptcy court they must do so in the time provide by court which is 60 days after meeting they did not do so the debt does not exist????? Also be reminded that the code specifically said if there is Fraud or the card was taken by False Pretences which is my case. If the creditor would have protested in the time provided by court the trustees job is to review that claim and determined to not discharge that debt and remit the evidence to a D.A for criminal prosecution???????

Like they say No BODY NO CRIME?????????

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Like they say No BODY NO CRIME?????????

That's the way I see it. This creditor is stuck in a circular bind: can't reopen the bankruptcy because they snoozed and now don't have sufficient cause, and they can't charge fraud without a debt. But they don't have a debt unless the bankruptcy discharge is revoked, yet they can't reopen the bankruptcy. Around and around it goes. Quite frankly, I think it's their problem, not yours.

I think that if all the attorneys you've contacted have told you not to worry about it, your best course of action is... to not worry about it. I'm not in your shoes so it may be easy for me to say, but at some point you have to lay it down. Especially since all the advice you're getting seems to be that there's nothing these jerks can do. Best wishes to you!

[PaKettle]

I'd trust your attorney, forget about it. Seems they are just using scare tactics. Have your mom threaten to file complaints against them with the FTC. If and when they file a legal action against you, then you will deal with it. I doubt if they do, they are just bluffing.

Good luck!

[Hollyhomemaker]

What mental illness is this exactly? Because you knew at the time that you were committing identity theft on your mother, so I dont see how your "illness" could be any kind of defense. As long as you knew at the time that you were doing wrong then you should be held accountable. Is there a statue of limitations on fraud? I thought a BK case could be reopened if fraud was later on discovered?

Honestly how can you do that to your mother? Dont tell me the illness made you do it either. Just own up to it and get to the heart of it so it won't happen again. I mean not only do you commit identity theft on her, but then you bankrupt the debt causing her to have this on her credit report for the next possible 10 years.

You should do the right thing. Own up to the fraud, get this bankrupt debt OFF of your mother's credit report and accept the consequences. Stop making excuses for your criminal behavior towards the woman who gave you life and raised you.

You need to realize how serious identity theft is! Over 8 million Americans were victims of identity theft in as recent as 2005.
It's a slap in the face to people who truly have mental illnesses that you just throw that excuse around for committing this crime. You are more worried about yourself in this then the real victim which is your mom. I don't even know what to say.

I just cannot believe what I have read here.

[roki]

What mental illness is this exactly? Because you knew at the time that you were committing identity theft on your mother, so I dont see how your "illness" could be any kind of defense. As long as you knew at the time that you were doing wrong then you should be held accountable. Is there a statue of limitations on fraud? I thought a BK case could be reopened if fraud was later on discovered?

Honestly how can you do that to your mother? Dont tell me the illness made you do it either. Just own up to it and get to the heart of it so it won't happen again. I mean not only do you commit identity theft on her, but then you bankrupt the debt causing her to have this on her credit report for the next possible 10 years.

You should do the right thing. Own up to the fraud, get this bankrupt debt OFF of your mother's credit report and accept the consequences. Stop making excuses for your criminal behavior towards the woman who gave you life and raised you.

You need to realize how serious identity theft is! Over 8 million Americans were victims of identity theft in as recent as 2005.
It's a slap in the face to people who truly have mental illnesses that you just throw that excuse around for committing this crime. You are more worried about yourself in this then the real victim which is your mom. I don't even know what to say.

I just cannot believe what I have read here.

You are clearly not a lawyer???? and in the past i have been a victim of fraud???? also there is no fraud but a card taking under False pretences that came under my mothers name that was paid until it could not!!!! generally people go to Bankruptcy to discharge their debts to start a new life. Also i am not saying that what i did is right you do not know how shameful i feel of what i did and i have spend all this years make it up to my mother. In regards to mental illness there is certification by Psycologist and Psychiatrist that i was Insane during that time and that is why i do not remember about this happening the only reason why i am saying that i did it is because i recently found out that i made payments on that card so it clearly is pinned on me!!!! You clearly are passing judgement without knowing the whole story??????

[roki]

Also be reminded that the law is very clear on this that creditors have a chance to protest within the 60 days after creditor meeting and advisory complaint if the debts where obtained by using fraud o like in my case under False Pretences which is my case!!!! also the the Bankruptcy code provides also creditors if they find out after discharge that the Discharge was obtained Fraudently that means under the BK proceeding me or my lawyer Hide assets or lie directly to question of the trustee regarding that debt. then the creditor could ask the trustee to reopen the case and take that debt out of discharge and also prosecute criminally. In my case the trustee had the chance to ask my lawyer and my lawyer was prepared to answer why he included those debts there and why and we were not question and in top of that already my mom had told by certified plea to the court and notify the creditor that the card was obtained fraudently and they did received after the notice to go to the creditors that i was including this debt in my BK... It cannot be more clear when they received notice the were already in knowledge that the card was obtained Fraudently and i was putting it for discharge abd they did not answer they lost there chance cannot be reopen!!!!!


You know how many people in america go thrue bankruptcy by obtaining credit using false pretences????? Just an example a big chunk of the mortgage meltdown had to do with people applying for loans to buy houses that they could not afford stating false Incomes!!!!! Do you know that if you Knowingly lie about this it is consider ground for Fraud!!!!! and banks are threatening people left and right about this and people still go bankrupt and still get their debts discharge. Just an example when i went to the creditors meeting before me another case a couple when up to the Trustee to speak their case well their bank Wells Fargo show up asking the court that beside them keeping the home they wanted restitution because this couple Knowingly Overstated and lie their income to purchase their home. Wells fargo alleged that if they knew their actual income they would have not giving them the loan which they have defaulted. They proof everything they provided the court with all the documentation that the couple lie the trustee told the couple that clearly there are grounds here of Fraud. The lawyer step in and provided that the couple had no assets and could not even paid the restitution that wells fargo was asking. Also the lawyer provided that the couple were told by their mortgage broker that is the way is done in America the couple being immigrants. Well it was the longest creditors meeting there but the main trustee after allot of conversation between him and lawyer recommended that the debt be discharge anyway he told Wells Fargo that ultimately their complaince dept should had not approve the loan and then submitted that info to a D.S for prosecution under perjury and they did not so they were discharge!!!!! that is the main problem in america now the Adjustable rate mortgages together with the lying about income to creditors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Roki, please don't defend yourself to someone who doesn't know you. It's not worth it. And I really do not see and cannot comprehend how someone who doesn't know you and has never met you can believably and competently re-diagnose you on the basis of a few internet postings and somehow declare you "Sane But Immoral"...

Holly, I personally have been victimized by a couple of people who were just plain evil, and then hid behind some sort of concocted mental diagnosis in order to keep people off their backs and engender symapthy for themselves, so I'm not saying you're wrong. But there really ARE diseases of the mind where people really have no idea what they do, and end up suffering immense guilt over it later when they finally get diagnosed and successfully treated. Andrea Yates comes to mind: when she was jailed and (finally) properly medicated, all she wanted to do was die for the heinous thing she had done to her kids, and pretty much stayed that way. What a horrible existence. Is she paying for her crime? Oh yes, I think so.

I don't know Roki, but I do know there's no way to tell the difference between a faker and the real thing on the net... except that someone with no conscience wouldn't be posting here looking for answers because there's no situation they feel unable to meet, no trap they can't lie their way out of. Sociopaths have tremendous arrogance, and would have no need to be here, no fear of being caught. Hence I give Roki the benefit of any doubt, and I hope you rethink your stance and do the same.

[Hollyhomemaker]

Roki, please don't defend yourself to someone who doesn't know you. It's not worth it. And I really do not see and cannot comprehend how someone who doesn't know you and has never met you can believably and competently re-diagnose you on the basis of a few internet postings and somehow declare you "Sane But Immoral"...

Holly, I personally have been victimized by a couple of people who were just plain evil, and then hid behind some sort of concocted mental diagnosis in order to keep people off their backs and engender symapthy for themselves, so I'm not saying you're wrong. But there really ARE diseases of the mind where people really have no idea what they do, and end up suffering immense guilt over it later when they finally get diagnosed and successfully treated. Andrea Yates comes to mind: when she was jailed and (finally) properly medicated, all she wanted to do was die for the heinous thing she had done to her kids, and pretty much stayed that way. What a horrible existence. Is she paying for her crime? Oh yes, I think so.

I don't know Roki, but I do know there's no way to tell the difference between a faker and the real thing on the net... except that someone with no conscience wouldn't be posting here looking for answers because there's no situation they feel unable to meet, no trap they can't lie their way out of. Sociopaths have tremendous arrogance, and would have no need to be here, no fear of being caught. Hence I give Roki the benefit of any doubt, and I hope you rethink your stance and do the same.

I was a recent victim of identity theft where someone got ahold of my c.c number from a purchase done online and what did they do with my c.c number? And by the way we knew it was solely due to that transaction because it was a c.c card I had had for 5 years but had never used before, not ever. Anyway, the person took my $10k limit and ran half that limit up in one week's time ordering porn, signing up with porn sites, etc. It's disgusting and if he uses the mental illness excuse I hope he still goes to jail. The police and FBI are investigating and a search warrant has been issued for the IP of the person who did this. They already know his email address and a few other bits of info........

Mental illness is ONLY a legit excuse and a valid legal defense when the person does NOT know the difference between RIGHT and WRONG at the time the crime is being committed.

It's ridiculous for someone to go into a store and steal something and at the same time telling themselves Im a kleptomaniac, I know I am, and yet they still commit the same crime over and over. Millions upon millions of Americans have mental illness but they don't go and commit crimes.

And for Andrea Yates she should get the electric chair. Don't even get me started on her. After she killed her 5 children she goes and calls 911 IMMEDIATELY showing that she knew the difference between right and wrong.

Again people with mental illnesses deserve all of our love, support, medical care, and laws to protect them, but the illnesses should not be used as an excuse when a crime has been committed, WHEN THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG at the time.

Shame on the OP for committing a terrible crime that has left his mother's credit in shambles for the next ten years and probably resulted in many of her credit card companies closing her accounts, (if she had ANY PRIME credit cards, they ALL shut down cards once they see a IIB (included in bankruptcy) under an account of one of their cardholders. He did this against the one person who gave him life and raised him. I am thoroughly disgusted. This is a support board I know, and its one of the best on the internet and I love it here, but when someone commits a crime this should not be a place for the perpetrator of a crime to get a pat on the back and say it's okay.

[Kam]

Roki,

As someone trying to read your posts and make sense of what you are saying, could you please lay off the heavy use of question marks and exclamation points? You are using question marks at the end of statements, instead of rephrasing the statement into a question and your prose makes for difficult reading. If you want clear, concise answers from us, please post in a clear, concise manner. Okay? I am not being judgemental here, your posts are confusing and you want answers.

[roki]

I was a recent victim of identity theft where someone got ahold of my c.c number from a purchase done online and what did they do with my c.c number? And by the way we knew it was solely due to that transaction because it was a c.c card I had had for 5 years but had never used before, not ever. Anyway, the person took my $10k limit and ran half that limit up in one week's time ordering porn, signing up with porn sites, etc. It's disgusting and if he uses the mental illness excuse I hope he still goes to jail. The police and FBI are investigating and a search warrant has been issued for the IP of the person who did this. They already know his email address and a few other bits of info........

Mental illness is ONLY a legit excuse and a valid legal defense when the person does NOT know the difference between RIGHT and WRONG at the time the crime is being committed.

It's ridiculous for someone to go into a store and steal something and at the same time telling themselves Im a kleptomaniac, I know I am, and yet they still commit the same crime over and over. Millions upon millions of Americans have mental illness but they don't go and commit crimes.

And for Andrea Yates she should get the electric chair. Don't even get me started on her. After she killed her 5 children she goes and calls 911 IMMEDIATELY showing that she knew the difference between right and wrong.

Again people with mental illnesses deserve all of our love, support, medical care, and laws to protect them, but the illnesses should not be used as an excuse when a crime has been committed, WHEN THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG at the time.

Shame on the OP for committing a terrible crime that has left his mother's credit in shambles for the next ten years and probably resulted in many of her credit card companies closing her accounts, (if she had ANY PRIME credit cards, they ALL shut down cards once they see a IIB (included in bankruptcy) under an account of one of their cardholders. He did this against the one person who gave him life and raised him. I am thoroughly disgusted. This is a support board I know, and its one of the best on the internet and I love it here, but when someone commits a crime this should not be a place for the perpetrator of a crime to get a pat on the back and say it's okay.

Once again you don't know me and what happen to you is completely different of what happen to my mom the reason i took that credit card which i made payments until bankruptcy was to subsides my business and help my family back then i was taken care of everyone instead of taking care of me. Also remember that my mom has been able to clean her credit by saying that those credit cards were obtained fraudently and are not hers and she has been succesfull except for this one that sued. Neverthless Capitalone is ready to clear my mom and suposely go after me for the Fraud but they lost there chance!!! I was willing to face them and provide court with all the evidence on my behalf because the only thing i did is obtained a card on false pretences the same way maybe you or anyone in your family probably lied to a loan officer or credit app by overstating income to get a loan????? Please do not judge and throw stones when you have a crystal roof. if you are a victim of iD Theft this is not the forum for you???????

[Kam]

RokI:

You are missing the point here: You committed fraud. You obtained credit cards fraudulently. From what I have been able to understand, you are saying you took out the cards to help your business and your family. I have to disagree with you that fidging the numbers on your own credit or loan app is the same thing as stealing someone else's SSN to obtain credit. That is like comparing apples and oranges. I will freely admit that I have overstated my income by $50.00 or so to obtain a credit card, but I sure the hell have never used my children's or spouse's SSN to fraudently obtain credit.

I would ask though that you stop throwing your mental incompetency up as a defense to what you did. There are people on here who are alcoholics, gamblers, recovering drug addicts who have freely owned up to their mistakes and are working hard to start a new life. I wish you well on your journey.

I think we are beating a dead horse here. It looks like your attorney is on the ball and you won't be held liable for anything. So I guess I am at a loss for why you keep posting about your situation?

[roki]

RokI:

You are missing the point here: You committed fraud. You obtained credit cards fraudulently. From what I have been able to understand, you are saying you took out the cards to help your business and your family. I have to disagree with you that fidging the numbers on your own credit or loan app is the same thing as stealing someone else's SSN to obtain credit. That is like comparing apples and oranges. I will freely admit that I have overstated my income by $50.00 or so to obtain a credit card, but I sure the hell have never used my children's or spouse's SSN to fraudently obtain credit.

I would ask though that you stop throwing your mental incompetency up as a defense to what you did. There are people on here who are alcoholics, gamblers, recovering drug addicts who have freely owned up to their mistakes and are working hard to start a new life. I wish you well on your journey.

I think we are beating a dead horse here. It looks like your attorney is on the ball and you won't be held liable for anything. So I guess I am at a loss for why you keep posting about your situation?

When it comes to the law Obtaining credit using False Pretences is the same. I am not justifying what i did but people that overstate in a credit application which is a legal abiding contract and knowingly lies is commiting Fraud. Allot of banks are going to the meetings trying to get restitution for unpaid house payments and fees and in most cases the trustee still gives the person discharge even if the commited fraud because there were no assets. Also be reminded that i forge a signature but i paid the card until bankruptcy so that means there was no theft of property and money.....

[FreshLikeADaisy]

I am thoroughly disgusted. This is a support board I know, and its one of the best on the internet and I love it here, but when someone commits a crime this should not be a place for the perpetrator of a crime to get a pat on the back and say it's okay.

Holly, I am sorry you were victimized, that is horrible to have to go through. I think on the rest you and I will have to agree to disagree. I'm sorry you felt like the responses here were "a pat on the back" for Roki, or that Roki wasn't fessing up the way you thought he should, but I have to be honest and say I didn't think two seconds about that: I saw a person in pain, and I answered their question based on the information given. And I don't regret it, either. What's done is done. I am not going to rip anyone apart over something they cannot undo, and if all the people involved (his mom, the bk judge, the authorities) haven't seen fit to press charges then neither do I. If Roki acknowledges that his actions were wrong (which he has done repeatedly) that's good enough for me.

No pat on the back here, except maybe for trying to change his life for the better and owning up to what he did. He seems to be at least *trying*, which is more than can be said for many. But again, you are free to disagree. I just don't see how it can help anyone to have to face censure and judgement and long sermons over what is already done, where there is clearly no intent to reoffend. Sorry, call me ignorant, but I just don't see any good in that. Hence my post. Best wishes to you.

[HHM]

Bottom line, this is case the debtor should probably win as this persons attorney suggests.

The creditor would probably need to prove they weren't properly notified of the BK filing as a prerequisite to re-opening the case, because their time to object has come and gone. Unless there is a specific exception somewhere for fraud, I doubt there is anything to worry about.