creditor threatening to reopen bankruptcy case for CC fraud?

[roki]

Hi i am new here?


Going thrue bankruptcy is the hardest thing that i have ever done in my life. I am currently disable for Mental reasons. I just recently obtain my Discharge certification of the court on the 22 october i was so glad because since 2004 i had situations that i unknowingly did because of my illness that may have been constituted as fraud.

In 2001 i aquired a Credit card that came under my Moms name i Forge her signature and i got a credit card doing dad this was in 2001 like i said previously i was not well certifiably.

neverthless for the next 3 years on that false pretence i made regular payments on that card until my business went Bankrupt and i had to be put under psychiatric supervision so i was able to have my sickness under control by my doctors and we decided this year to file my Bankruptcy and clear me of all that debt incur.

When we met with the Bankruptcy lawyer my mother an myself explain to him the whole situation and how some debts could have been obtain fraudulently pretty much the Fraud was me against my Mother and my Mother did not file any charges against me all that time. neverthless she did report to the credit agencies that does Credit card were not obtain by her.

Well the Bankruptcy lawyer suggested to include in my Bankruptcy those debts that i took from my mother part of the creditor list submitted. Well the lawyer pretty much said that if those debts were discharge in the court and those creditors did not protest on the timely manner i will be cleared. Well thank to god in my preceeding my lawyer answer all the Trustee question even on the debts that may not be mine so i was discharge normally.

Now One of teh credit card creditors Sued my mom before i filed not me asking for collection on the credit card i took form her fradulently my mom answer all the paper work and everything went on until the creditor ask my mother in order to remove that debt out she must fill an affidavit saying that is not her one of the question of this legal document ask her if she knew for certain that i did it. She really did not know for certain that Credit card exactly so she said she Suspected that it was me but that i am a mental patient.

Everything went well as far the creditor call my mom a couple of weeks back and said to my mom the were going to close the case so we were happy. To our surprised 2 days ago the lawyer call my mom super furious saying that he was going to proof that is her signature and so on that he will take the case to court but he was furious because he received the discharge on my end.

Today this lawyer call me he is telling me that he has found payments made by men that card 2001-2002-2002-2004 and that he will ask the judge that has my Moms civil suit to clear my Mom and to refer the case to the the evidence to the district attorney so the could Charge me with grand theft this collection lawyer said he was going to ask the Bankruptcy case to be reopen so i will be responsible for the debt.

I inmmediatelly call my lawyer which pretty much laugh and said too late the had close to 90 days to file a petition qith the court under Fraud and they did not so so that debt is discharge forever in my case. neverthless there is an aspect of Criminality that this lawyer is pushing for in order for my mom to pay for my Mistake.

My question can this creditor which was notified according to law now could accuse me for grandtheft?

i read the law and if the Court discharges it nothing about that debt criminally or civilly could be done against me.

i am sorry for the rambling does anyone have any experience with this i am trying to continue with my life this situation happen because i was not well certifiably can state charges be pressed against me for that debt?????????

[Boscoe]

HI roki.

First off, please try to write any future postings in a paragraph format without so many run-on sentences. Your post was difficult to read which is probably why no one else has responded yet...

Anyway, your attorney is correct. They had 60 days to object to your discharge. They did not do so, which almost definitely means they cannot pursue it now. Their attempts to do so are just scare tactics that you should ignore.

Good luck.

[roki]

HI roki.

First off, please try to write any future postings in a paragraph format without so many run-on sentences. Your post was difficult to read which is probably why no one else has responded yet...

Anyway, your attorney is correct. They had 60 days to object to your discharge. They did not do so, which almost definitely means they cannot pursue it now. Their attempts to do so are just scare tactics that you should ignore.

Good luck.

I am sorry but i am extremely nervous i thought i was out of the woods and this happens but this creditor could easily proof in my moms civil collection case that clearly the signature was forge by me because the credit card has payments attach to my old checking account under my name. He is threatening to ask the civil judge to authorize him to released that info to a district attorny for grand-theft charges??????

[roki]

What about if this creditor? tells the court they were not notify in a timely manner?????????? can they go after me still i am sorry i am so worry this is driving me crazy i have gone thru allot and my lawyer is a great lawyer but is a man of few words he is not very explicative he just told me not to worry and to tell the credit good luck from him and that to forget about it they had a cahnce to protest. what it does not make sense to me that for 90 days they received notice if they would have feel why is this person send us this debt if is not his that should have raised a red flagged they right then should have send a lawyer to context???? The original debt is no more than 3,500 dollars they sued my mom for 13,000 and now they are saying that we owed them 23,000 i really think this people are crazy??????

[HHM]

Punctuation is your friend, not your enemy.

[WantToBeDebtFre]

Are you saying that you discharged debts in your mom's name in your bankruptcy? I'm not sure how that could work. If you said you forged your mom's signature it seems like you would be in some kind of trouble. It doesn't seem like you could discharge the debt in a bankruptcy because it is a fraudulent debt. Maybe I misunderstood your post...

[lrprn]

Sounds like quite a mess. Were you diagnosed with your mental illness by a professional psychologist or psychiatrist? If you were, then your diagnosis becomes a court defense for you in the worst case scenario if this creditor does get your bk case reopened.

Under these circumstances, you will have to trust your lawyer and let him do his job.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Hi Roki, best wishes to you as you deal with this. I have to tell you, I don't know much about the complexities of your case, but two things jumped out at me as I was wading through your posts: first, that whoever these people are, until and unless they take actual legal steps to have the *judge* (not themselves, they can't do jack) reopen the bankruptcy case, they are engaged in trying to collect a discharged debt. Illegal, illegal, illegal.

Secondly, while you may well have committed fraud or larceny theft or uttering a forged document or being mean to a puppy dog that doesn't mean that you ever committed *bankruptcy* fraud. TOTALLY different thing. And from what I have read, there are cases getting thrown out of bankruptcy courts all the time because the judge in the matter doesn't feel that bankruptcy is the primary issue, and so he throws it back to the criminal court or divorce court or whatever. Only bankruptcy fraud is dealt with in bankruptcy court. To reopen this bankruptcy, they're going to have to give a judge a damn good reason not only to reopen it, but why it belongs in his court to begin with, AND why they weren't awake during the 60 days prior to discharge... and that is actually much harder to do than they have conveyed to you. Legally, they dropped the ball entirely and now they're pissed off about it. Fine, but that doesn't give them legal rights or standing with a judge.

My strong feeling on this is that they are threatening you and your mom *not* because they intend to act, but because they know they CANNOT act. So the only thing left to them is to harass you and your mom, especially if she is elderly on top of you having your own stuff to work out. Which brings us right back to the illegality of trying to collect a legally discharged debt.

You seem to have a great lawyer, though! If it were me, I think I'd call him and ask him to get an injunction against them trying to collect this debt and harassing you. Then they would pretty much have to stop with the shenanigans and go ahead and take action, or leave you alone.

That may seem counter-intuitive, because they've scared you with their threats. But in reality, you can't fight accusations and threats and "what-if" scenarios. If they actually DO anything (which I kind of doubt they can) it's actually better for you and your mom because then YOU can do what you need to do in response! As another poster mentioned, you have a built-in defense of mental incapacity, and apparently you have plenty of documentation to back it up. The debts were not hidden from the court (*that* is what bankruptcy fraud is, not confessing them honestly and having them discharged as you did) so you have nothing to fear from the bankruptcy judge.

Bottom line is if they want to reopen the bankruptcy case, they have to get past the judge. Period. And they haven't. Haven't even started, from what you wrote. Where's the motion to reopen? On top of that, they snoozed through the 60 days they had to make any objection, and yeah, the judge will notice that.

If they want to go the criminal route, they have to convince the D.A. that prosecuting you for fraud is a winnable case that is worth the court's time and money. You have a certified mental incapacity, which is pretty much a free pass depending on the circumstances, and you had the debts legally discharged through bankruptcy: there is no acual crime because there is no actual debt. Perhaps they just want to leverage the D.A. into forcing restitution out of you by making it a criminal matter, as in, "We won't charge you if you agree to pay restitution..." Unless there's a great deal more to this story, I just can't see an already overworked D.A. going for it. Too bad for them: you didn't discharge the debts, the court did, and legally so. But they can't fight the court, so they're fighting you.

All these little creeps have done is scared and harassed you and your mom. That's free of cost and easy for any coward to do. But until and unless they do more, they are barred by collection law (FDCPA) from making threats of legal action they do not intend to take, and they are barred by bankruptcy law from attempting to collect a debt that has been legally discharged. See if your attorney can at least fire off a letter or two demanding that they cease and desist contacting you at all. If they have any ammo at all, they need to put it in their guns instead of waving the empties around.

Oh, and one last thing: in a Chapter 7, if a creditor was not notified through mistake or oversight, and there were no assets available to pay the claim, it's discharged anyway. I don't know what your circumstances were, but if it was a no-asset Chapter 7, you're probably free and clear anyway.

That trustee who handled your bankruptcy really wanted to get paid, and I have no doubt your filing was examined thoroughly not only for assets but for fraud. The trustee didn't find any and the judge signed off on it, and that really does mean something. These people are trying to make you believe it doesn't, but it really does.

I have a feeling you'll be just fine in this. Good luck to you!

[roki]

I Had no assets???? And pending a fraud case it was commited against my mom because even thou i obtained the CC Fraudulently i made payments on the cc until i was commited to Psychiatric Supervision. I read that creditors have the time given by the court to protest and if there is fraud they have to file within time if they did not do that the can't go after me civilly or criminally. And in the case to reopen which is incredibly impossible!!!! this only happens if the Debtor (I) purposely and knowingly commited fraud to then go to Bankruptcy and this happen more than 6 years ago. Also the reopen cases on Chapter 7 when the Debtor (i) knowing hides assets from the court that is consider Fraud. I hope there is a Lawyer here that has the experience to put me at ease?????????

[roki]

I have just received an e-mail from my lawyer which he clearly puts me at ease???


The law is very clear on Dischargebility of debts obtained by False pretenses( Which is my case),debts for fraud while acting in Fiduciary capacity will be discharge Unless the Creditor TIMELY files an adversary complaint. The Creditor must file and adversary Complaint 60 days from the first date of Creditors meeting!!!!!!


Even if he Proofs that i did what i did is Fraud they had there chance to protest. My lawyer said even if they go now with the pretense saying that they just found out this information and they thought this debt was acquired by my Mom they were still notify by the court with plenty of time that i was including that debt in my bankruptcy for Discharge and that info should have been received by the lawyers to contact my mother before my case close investigating and provide the trustee to exclude that debt out of my Bankruptcy the failed to do that "that is there problem" i went thru Due Process and my case is Closed!!!!!!


In regards to the civil Lawsuit against my Mom my mother has not Lie she did not know for certain that i took that credit card and for sure she did not use it even the bill was send to another address which was not her residential so they cannot proof that either so i am happy to say that ther are Screw???????

[roki]

If this continues i am really going to go crazy?????????

I have just e-mail my lawyer again because i discover a Flaw that may leave me open for prosecution for that debt that i acquired Fraudently by forging my mothers signature back in 2001 to get a credit card under her name. They can prove it easily like i said i made payments 2001-2002,2003,2004 maybe the cannot proof fraud but they can certainly proof that under False Pretences i got that card??????


727(D) which is the code of Discharge that i am under does provide the Creditor for a Year after discharge to ask the trustee to reopen the case under the proof that they found out there was fraud after the discharge was issue. In my case Capitol One lawyers can easily tell the trustee even thou they received the proper notification and i Included that debt in my Bankruptcy under there eyes this debt did not belong to me. Therefore in the civil collection process against my mom they uncovered that they could proof that payments made from my checking account went to paid a card that was not under my name so they cant say that signature is surely forge by me.


Now also this code says something about the case being close and also says on that instance that if it is close it is impossible to resurrect the claim by the creditor. In my situation the chapter 7 case was close and signed by a Judge????? (BUT THIS WAS RECENT) By the way i have no ASSETS I do not know if this law could pertain to me or to a long case or something if anyone could have some compassion for me my Lawyer is giving the impression that he does not give a dam??? because he has been clear from the begining that he is a Bankruptcy lawyer and not a criminal lawyer but if the case is reopen the are going to call him. I am very afraid this situation is not helping at all my mother is afraid that i may go back to a manic stage and will have be commited again if anyone knows this or could ask there lawyer this situation please help me out??????for my health.

[whywhywhy]

As far as I can tell, and keep in mind I'm no lawyer, but..

727(d) states that the if discharge itself was obtained by fraud and the party seeking your revocation didn't know about the fraud until after the discharge was granted, they can request it be it be revoked. In regards to fraud to obtain specific credit, it is the creditor's responsibility to cry foul in a timely fashion, not yours. You should trust your attorney, but he can only answer the same question so many times and he is only a bankruptcy attorney. If you are worried about your situation, I would contact a criminal lawyer as well.

[roki]

As far as I can tell, and keep in mind I'm no lawyer, but..

727(d) states that the if discharge itself was obtained by fraud and the party seeking your revocation didn't know about the fraud until after the discharge was granted, they can request it be it be revoked. In regards to fraud to obtain specific credit, it is the creditor's responsibility to cry foul in a timely fashion, not yours. You should trust your attorney, but he can only answer the same question so many times and he is only a bankruptcy attorney. If you are worried about your situation, I would contact a criminal lawyer as well.

Yes i have already consulted criminal lawyers???? most of them say is a scared tactic to get my mom to pay something she did not took. But the problems with criminal lawyers is that they do not know anything about Bankruptcy law so they only limit themselves to the allegation of the forgery????? they all ask me for a retainer of $ 1,000 to dissapear this problem. No i understand that i am persistent and i do want to continue with my life but is very hard when you have people threatening you from commiting grand theft you cannot concentrate on the future.


Now it is so incredible to me than a creditor after debt being discharge and properly notified by the BK court to respond in the timely manner does not and now wants to ask the trustee to reopen the case base that they found out later that the credit or money or property was obtained Fradualently the code say they have up to a year after discharge to do that but it also says that if the case is Close that is it???? My question is that there is a disparity on this on one hand it says that if the court notify the creditor they only have 60 days after creditors meeting to have an advisory complaint on this and they did not so even if the card was obtained fraudently they have to proof it in that time. I am just so worry about this because my situation specific on this debt that i included was a debt charge to my mom and they could alleged that even if they received the notice it had no value because it was not me that there were after but my mom and then they later learn that it was me. Now i have not lie to the court or hidden any assets because i have none!!!!!! so i think this section maybe continued if there were assets.

Another thing is that my mom got civilly sued before i submitted my bankruptcy. My mother answer the civil sued explaining from the begining that this card was obtain fradulently but she did not say it was me ( she really did not know for sure). So they new even before they got a notice on my end that the card was fraudently all they had to do was investigate easily who made the payments and attach them to my notice of Bankruptcy where i was including that debt and file and advisory complaint within the period allowed by court if they did not that is there problem!!!! Well i hope this interpretation that i had just made makes some sense????


An d my recommendation is don't due anything illegal, Peace is Invaluable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[roki]

As far as I can tell, and keep in mind I'm no lawyer, but..

727(d) states that the if discharge itself was obtained by fraud and the party seeking your revocation didn't know about the fraud until after the discharge was granted, they can request it be it be revoked. In regards to fraud to obtain specific credit, it is the creditor's responsibility to cry foul in a timely fashion, not yours. You should trust your attorney, but he can only answer the same question so many times and he is only a bankruptcy attorney. If you are worried about your situation, I would contact a criminal lawyer as well.

So what you are saying if the discharge was obtained by fraud and not the credit card itself back in 2001?????? OH!!! i am understanding what you are saying if the creditor says this person deceived the court because if was hidden assets or something then the discharge could be revoke. I did not lie to the court and that is final????? Maybe you are right

[oldbaddebts]

Are you saying that you discharged debts in your mom's name in your bankruptcy? I'm not sure how that could work. If you said you forged your mom's signature it seems like you would be in some kind of trouble. It doesn't seem like you could discharge the debt in a bankruptcy because it is a fraudulent debt. Maybe I misunderstood your post...

Seems to me that the OP obtained a discharge on a debt that could be civilaly placed on the OP in the future. This would have the effect of ensuring that OP will never be obligated to pay it, but wouldn't cover any criminal liability.

Your mom is not legally liable for the debt because it was fraud, you are not legally liable because you had a smart attorney that got it to stay included in the discharge. The creditor may be able to press criminal charges, but they don't have a leg to stand on, you have the defense of your medical records, the defense that the very proof they are trying to use against you if they had looked at it originally they would have known it was fraud, yet they continued to allow it, and why would they go through the trouble and expense of criminal court when they STILL will never have a leg to stand on to get a dime from anyone.

I would wait for the next time they contact you, and remind them ONE time that they are permanently forbidden from attempted to collect this debt, and that if they contact you again YOU intend on reporting the debt collection activities.

Note: I am not an attorney, and can only give my opinion.