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    Filing With My Husband or Not, Divorce Possible in Future (Very Long)

    Dear BK Forum Friends,

    I've been hesitant to post my entire situation as it is so embarrassing, but I really need to make some tough decisions soon and would appreciate some insight.

    My husband and I are very deep in debt. There is $75,000 of debt in his name only. I have under $15,000 of debt in mine. We live in the state of New York.

    Our credit historys don't touch one anothers at all except for the refinance of our home. I am an authorized user on some of his credit cards, but not a cosigner. The reason for this is that most of the credit cards were obtained before we were married in 2000. Only 2 out of his 8 or 9 cards were obtained since we were married and they were used only for a balance transfer and never actually charged anything on them (about 2 years ago). We lived together for 8 years prior to our marriage and bought the house the year before we were married. The house is in his name only. When we refinanced the house 4 years ago, we did the financing in both of our names, but never changed the deed. Thats really not an issue; the house doesn't have any equity, its actually upside down.

    We own a relatively nice truck with a small amount of equity and very high monthly payments. The payments are $600 a month and there are about 22 payments left; the loan is scheduled to be paid off in June 2009. The truck is in his name only; I don't even have a driver's license. We needed a new vehicle to replace our 1989 van (which ironically still runs perfectly). I wanted to get one of those small SUVs like a Santa Fe or KIA that had long warranties and good gas mileage. He did the hard sell on the truck and it was pretty much this truck or nothing.

    Those are the only assets we have. He doesn't have a bank account in his own name; we put all the household money in mine and I write the check for the bills. We haven't done any property transfers and we own just the usual in household goods. We aren't even close to the $5000 exemption as far as possessions, I don't think. Alot of our household stuff is second hand or very old. Right now we have about $400 in the bank.

    Here is where it gets complicated. A while back, we had a profitable business. It went bellyup when the dollar stores started monopolizing our area and we couldn't compete with them. This was about 7 years ago, right after our marriage. I started selling on eBay and he didn't do anything for about a year. He just stayed home and sulked. His brother told him about a local shop that was looking for an auto technician part time. He took the job and immediately developed a bizarre attachment to the shop owner (a father figure/mentor sort of thing). The pay was low, $8 an hour (20 -30 hours a week) and no benefits.

    He told me that he'd be able to work there for a year or two and once he had experience he'd be able to get a job at a dealership or larger shop with benefits/retirement, ect. In the meantime, I would continue selling on eBay and it was profitable at that time for me. But we were already starting to get in over our heads with debt. His pay was low and eBay had some slow months, but for the most part, we got everything paid and put more than the minimum on our credit cards each month. I think the debt back then was about $10,000 total (and I was worried then, thinking it was huge). I didn't realize how much worse things could get.

    I pretty much left him alone on the low paying job for a few years. Then he studied for a month and took the ASE tests for auto technicians. He passed and became certified. I was so excited thinking that now he could get a better job, we'd get insurance, and I could actually go to a doctor or dentist. One of the requirements in the classifieds for alot of dealership jobs is that you are ASE certified so I figured things would finally get better. He told me that he had no intention of leaving his current employer.

    Another year passed and our financial situation was worse. We took out $30,000 in equity in our home to pay down the credit cards and down payment of the truck.

    Today, he is still working for the miserable wages at the same shop. I sell on eBay and go to college full-time. Last year, I realized that nothing may ever change and that he didn't care about us enough to try to get a better job. He would rather let us go bankrupt and lose everything than leave his job at his buddy's shop. So I decided to take action and go back to college to get my degree so I may be able to have a career myself. Ebay is too sporadic (and their fees have went up considerably) and my sales have fallen in half the past few years so I decided I needed to take drastic action. It was horribly scary being a college freshman at 38 years old, but I made it through the first year already and am registered for new classes next month. Yikes, now I'll be a 39 year old sophomore.

    His behavior has become very odd over the years. He is cold and distant. We haven't been intimate with each other in years. He makes comments to me that he won't get another job just to spite me because "I never shut my mouth" and I'm a "B****". And I rarely say anything to him because if I do, he just starts screaming at the top of his lungs. When I try to talk about finances, he really loses his cool. He is so unreasonable that I fear he has some sort of mental illness or personality disorder. I told him a few months ago that we had to do something and we may have to file bankruptcy. He didn't care at all, says, "That's great!"

    I want to get a divorce soon. My youngest child is 14 and when he gets a little bit older, I will approach my husband and ask for a divorce. He has been a horrible provider and a terrible husband. I haven't been to a doctor since my youngest child was born in 1993. I have cracked teeth and can't afford to go see a dentist. I have TMJ and I'm in pain constantly from it. I've been so nervous from all of this debt, bankruptcy, and stress that I clench my jaw constantly and this makes the TMJ even worse. I've never drank alcohol, but I've actually been thinking of starting because I thought it may help my nerves.

    We were managing on what little he made and what I made on eBay until some of our creditors raised our interest rates to 30%. I had never even been late on a payment. Then other creditors did that too and it just started spiraling out of control and the debt grew each month. We only used the cards for household stuff, groceries, gas, to make up the budget shortfall. I had hoped to catch up when he got the good job, but this never happened and it became a monster. We don't have any luxuries and haven't taken a vacation together since our honeymoon in 2000.

    I'm so humiliated by this situation. I feel betrayed by the creditors who ruined us by raising our rates when we never missed a payment. I feel betrayed by my husband. I feel so embarrassed everytime the phone rings and its a collector. When I go outside, I feel like all the neighbors know and they probably do because my husband enjoys having frequent outbursts outside to embarrass me.

    I realize my problems are even greater than bankruptcy can solve. I'm not religious, but I think I should go talk to a priest or someone in the clergy. I really have no one to talk to as I come from a very small family with only one sibling. I just don't know what to do. I just sit at the computer, read bankruptcy posts, and cry all day long.

    So I wanted to give you the whole sordid story in hopes that someone would have a word of wisdom for me. I guess I'm wondering if I should file BK7 along with him or if he should file alone and I should try to tackle the smaller amount of debt in my name. He says he doesn't care if I file with him or not. He's pretty much indifferent to the whole thing.

    I'm sorry this is so long.

    #2
    We Are Here For You !

    Welcome !

    I've been hesitant to post my entire situation as it is so embarrassing, but I really need to make some tough decisions soon and would appreciate some insight.

    My husband and I are very deep in debt. There is $75,000 of debt in his name only. I have under $15,000 of debt in mine. We live in the state of New York.

    Our credit historys don't touch one anothers at all except for the refinance of our home. I am an authorized user on some of his credit cards, but not a cosigner. The reason for this is that most of the credit cards were obtained before we were married in 2000. Only 2 out of his 8 or 9 cards were obtained since we were married and they were used only for a balance transfer and never actually charged anything on them (about 2 years ago). We lived together for 8 years prior to our marriage and bought the house the year before we were married. The house is in his name only. When we refinanced the house 4 years ago, we did the financing in both of our names, but never changed the deed. Thats really not an issue; the house doesn't have any equity, its actually upside down.

    We own a relatively nice truck with a small amount of equity and very high monthly payments. The payments are $600 a month and there are about 22 payments left; the loan is scheduled to be paid off in June 2009. The truck is in his name only; I don't even have a driver's license. We needed a new vehicle to replace our 1989 van (which ironically still runs perfectly). I wanted to get one of those small SUVs like a Santa Fe or KIA that had long warranties and good gas mileage. He did the hard sell on the truck and it was pretty much this truck or nothing.

    Those are the only assets we have. He doesn't have a bank account in his own name; we put all the household money in mine and I write the check for the bills. We haven't done any property transfers and we own just the usual in household goods. We aren't even close to the $5000 exemption as far as possessions, I don't think. Alot of our household stuff is second hand or very old. Right now we have about $400 in the bank.

    Here is where it gets complicated. A while back, we had a profitable business. It went bellyup when the dollar stores started monopolizing our area and we couldn't compete with them. This was about 7 years ago, right after our marriage. I started selling on eBay and he didn't do anything for about a year. He just stayed home and sulked. His brother told him about a local shop that was looking for an auto technician part time. He took the job and immediately developed a bizarre attachment to the shop owner (a father figure/mentor sort of thing). The pay was low, $8 an hour (20 -30 hours a week) and no benefits.

    He told me that he'd be able to work there for a year or two and once he had experience he'd be able to get a job at a dealership or larger shop with benefits/retirement, ect. In the meantime, I would continue selling on eBay and it was profitable at that time for me. But we were already starting to get in over our heads with debt. His pay was low and eBay had some slow months, but for the most part, we got everything paid and put more than the minimum on our credit cards each month. I think the debt back then was about $10,000 total (and I was worried then, thinking it was huge). I didn't realize how much worse things could get.

    I pretty much left him alone on the low paying job for a few years. Then he studied for a month and took the ASE tests for auto technicians. He passed and became certified. I was so excited thinking that now he could get a better job, we'd get insurance, and I could actually go to a doctor or dentist. One of the requirements in the classifieds for alot of dealership jobs is that you are ASE certified so I figured things would finally get better. He told me that he had no intention of leaving his current employer.

    Another year passed and our financial situation was worse. We took out $30,000 in equity in our home to pay down the credit cards and down payment of the truck.

    Today, he is still working for the miserable wages at the same shop. I sell on eBay and go to college full-time. Last year, I realized that nothing may ever change and that he didn't care about us enough to try to get a better job. He would rather let us go bankrupt and lose everything than leave his job at his buddy's shop. So I decided to take action and go back to college to get my degree so I may be able to have a career myself. Ebay is too sporadic (and their fees have went up considerably) and my sales have fallen in half the past few years so I decided I needed to take drastic action. It was horribly scary being a college freshman at 38 years old, but I made it through the first year already and am registered for new classes next month. Yikes, now I'll be a 39 year old sophomore.

    Big Pat on the back for going back to College, I'm 39 as well and I haven't gone back, I have about 2 years worth but just stayed in the working world!

    His behavior has become very odd over the years. He is cold and distant. We haven't been intimate with each other in years. He makes comments to me that he won't get another job just to spite me because "I never shut my mouth" and I'm a "B****". And I rarely say anything to him because if I do, he just starts screaming at the top of his lungs. When I try to talk about finances, he really loses his cool. He is so unreasonable that I fear he has some sort of mental illness or personality disorder. I told him a few months ago that we had to do something and we may have to file bankruptcy. He didn't care at all, says, "That's great!"

    I want to get a divorce soon.

    My opinion ONLY, work on that divorce FIRST. Separate your debts, sounds like you don't have much. The divorce will divvy the debts up and say whose responsible for what.

    My youngest child is 14 and when he gets a little bit older, I will approach my husband and ask for a divorce.

    Why wait what seems to be inevitable? Nip it the bud before it could get worst that it seems to be already! Just my opinion.

    He has been a horrible provider and a terrible husband. I haven't been to a doctor since my youngest child was born in 1993. I have cracked teeth and can't afford to go see a dentist. I have TMJ and I'm in pain constantly from it. I've been so nervous from all of this debt, bankruptcy, and stress that I clench my jaw constantly and this makes the TMJ even worse. I've never drank alcohol, but I've actually been thinking of starting because I thought it may help my nerves.

    Seek professional help before you break down, if you are still in school see if they offer some kind of counseling programs. I feel you pain!

    We were managing on what little he made and what I made on eBay until some of our creditors raised our interest rates to 30%. I had never even been late on a payment. Then other creditors did that too and it just started spiraling out of control and the debt grew each month. We only used the cards for household stuff, groceries, gas, to make up the budget shortfall. I had hoped to catch up when he got the good job, but this never happened and it became a monster. We don't have any luxuries and haven't taken a vacation together since our honeymoon in 2000.

    I'm so humiliated by this situation. I feel betrayed by the creditors who ruined us by raising our rates when we never missed a payment. I feel betrayed by my husband. I feel so embarrassed everytime the phone rings and its a collector. When I go outside, I feel like all the neighbors know and they probably do because my husband enjoys having frequent outbursts outside to embarrass me.

    Screw the creditors, take care of you marital situation. Counseling, divorce .. whatever it takes to get you focused and do what you need to do for you and your child!

    I realize my problems are even greater than bankruptcy can solve. I'm not religious, but I think I should go talk to a priest or someone in the clergy. I really have no one to talk to as I come from a very small family with only one sibling. I just don't know what to do. I just sit at the computer, read bankruptcy posts, and cry all day long.

    Not a bad idea to talk to a priest or just be able to talk to anyone for that matter, its good that you are able to "vent," let it out, even to a stranger that will listen with an open mind.

    So I wanted to give you the whole sordid story in hopes that someone would have a word of wisdom for me. I guess I'm wondering if I should file BK7 along with him or if he should file alone and I should try to tackle the smaller amount of debt in my name. He says he doesn't care if I file with him or not. He's pretty much indifferent to the whole thing.


    You need to consult a few lawyers about the Bk situation, most initial consultations are free. Gather as much facts, make list for yourself (Pros and Cons). Ask whether it would be better to tackle a divorce FIRST (if that is the route you want to take). This is just my opinion, I'm not a professional. A Bk lawyer won't give you advice about your marriage though he would probably suggest you need to consult a lawyer who handles divorce cases. You sound like you don't have too much debt, I would maybe consult a divorce lawyer and see how your debts would be divided and who would be responsible for what. Make yourself a good list. If you find you don't owe as much as your husband now compared to what you may IF you get a divorce, you may not have to file Bk and just take care of the debt on your own with a Debt Consolidation Company!

    Best of Luck to you ! Catchmeifyoucan !
    July 2006: Filed Ch13 :blink:
    Oct 2006: Converted to Ch7 :clapping:
    Jan 2007: DISCHARGED :clapping:
    Nov 2007: CLOSED :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

    Comment


      #3
      It sounds like most of the debt is his. Leave him and you leave his debt.

      At the current time it doesn't seem that you really have enough debt to declare bankruptcy (I'm talking just your debt not you and your husbands combined debt). Of course that does depend on your income and circumstances.

      You might actually be a candidate for credit counseling. I know most on this board are not fans of that credit counseling. However, that is because by the time most people make it to this board they are too far in debt for it to work.

      Catchme raised some really good points. Your school probably has counselors that are free or very low cost to you as a student. Additionally talking to a priest/minister is a good option. I also agree with catchme about not waiting if things are really bad and you see no reconciliation possible just get the divorce. You are not doing your kids any favors by waiting. They sense the tension, frustration, and they see that you and your husband have problems. Why put then trough that.

      If you aren't ready to get a divorce yet and have any hope that you and your husband can work it out the school counselors or a priest/minister could help you with marriage counseling if you could get him to go.

      It sounds to me like you need to decide what to do about your marriage and then you can tackle your debt problem. However, it does sound like your combined debt (you and your husbands) is spiraling out of control. Something will need to be done. Your husband will probably have to declare bankruptcy either way. But you have more options depending on what you choose to do with your marriage.

      He can declare bankruptcy by himself if you are married or not. And then you can work on your debt through credit counseling with or without him.

      Congratulations on tackling your problems head on and working towards a resolution. Everything will work out in the end because you recognize the problems and are willing to figure things out. Welcome. Feel free to ask questions, vent, or whatever. This is a very supportive group.
      Last edited by JollyGG; 08-09-2007, 06:17 AM.
      Filed: 10/26/2006
      Discharged: 03/05/2007
      Closed: 5/19/2008 - Asset case due to balance transfer and income tax refund

      Comment


        #4
        It's usually easier and cleaner to file BK after the Divorce is complete. Assets and Debts have been clearly divided in the Divorce.

        If you need to move forward with BK on your own, you can. Even while still married.

        In Married couples that plan to stay together, one can file separate of the other. Pending Divorce throws a wrinkle in the situation, but the BK Court allows avenues for that as well.

        You can move out of the marital home and file "Married, Separated". You can also ask your attny bifurcate your BK filing from you STBX spouse.
        Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
        Discharged - 12/2006
        Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
        Closed - 04/2007

        I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

        Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

        Comment


          #5
          Financial problems are the number one cause of divorces. It sounds as though the problem has festered over the years. I suppose you have to ask yourself, Do you love him?

          If you can't answer definitively yes to that. Then the marriage is nothing more than a shell. While divorce does impact children, staying in an unhappy marriage generally impacts them more than if you got an divorce. Kids can tell when their parents aren't in love and it shows. I would caution also that generally speaking divorced persons are not any more happy after the divorce than before it on average.

          If you answer yes to that question. Then the real part becomes determining how you might save what you got.

          It is likely he might could be suffering depression. That is a typical symptom of having overwhelming debt that you really aren't sure what to do about. Depression oftentimes also seeks to isolate itself. Not so much because the love is dead, but because it is afraid. I know my financial problems led me to much depression over the last 3-4 years. I've been doing much better since I filed BK and accepted that I had to do something to change my path.

          Talking to an outside clergyman might be a good idea. He would have an outside viewpoint, and would not be motivated by money as a lawyer might be. You can find the phone number of a church in the local phone book.

          If you decide the path of divorce is the correct one, then I would probably suggest it be undertaken before the bankruptcy. The reason is a bankruptcy discharge would be delayed until the divorce proceedings were completed anyway in most cases as the assets are settled.

          You might want to talk to a divorce attorney as well as a bankruptcy attorney to get information about the process in your area so you have a better idea of what the options are.
          May 31st, 2007: Petition Filed by my lawyer
          July 2nd, 2007: 341 Meeting Held
          September 4th, 2007: Discharged and Closed.

          Comment


            #6
            Kind of sounds like your spouse has dumped everything in your lap and says "take care of it"..... I'm busy!!

            If you have a spouse that you can't communicate with - then you can't solve very many problems that involve both of you..... From the sounds of it your marriage has been on a rocky road for quite some time with no signs of relief in sight.... and the financial situation just gets worse with time....

            Yes, marriage is supposed to be for a lifetime - but ya know - a lifetime can be a VERY LONG TIME..... when the situation is not a good one..... there is no end to it......

            If your marriage has gone "sour" then its time for changes in your life and his..... especially if there is no hope for the future that things will be better....

            I've heard women say "Oh, I can't live without him" (really their saying I can't live without his pockbook)....

            If he died tomorrow - he wouldn't be here anymore and you would have to survive....

            You may still love him, but that doesn't mean you have to live with him.....

            Kids don't miss much, and usually don't show their emotions when they do see things...... and unfortunately some kids have done foolish things because of their parents splitting or fighting.... as a result of the unstable homelife....

            Look at the "big picture" - weigh the pros and cons, make the decisions you need too (with or without spouse) that will turn things around in your life - offer you some calm and peacefull living, and that will help stablize the world you and your child lives in. Your child is old enough to realize mom and dad are not happy....

            For 35 years I listened to my folks say "I'm gonna divorce you, etc and the fighting and arguing...... 35 years later they were still married and fighting when one of them died.....

            They had NO MARRIAGE, NO LOVE, NO LIFE for those 35 years..... all they did was exist..... and make each other miserable.... and everyone around them too.

            Your only going to go around once in "this life", so use it wisely or its wasted.....

            Sometimes divorce is the only answer - just like filing bankruptcy is sometimes the only answer to financial problems.

            You have to look at the big picture of your life and base your decisions on what's in your best interest and the best interest of your child. If its divorce - then so be it, if it's bankruptcy, so be it.... WHATEVER IT TAKES... to bring that "peace" back to your life that you haven't seen in so long....

            See what your spouse is wanting to do, willing to do, and is going to do, and take it from there..... that will help you make your decisions....

            Keep us posted and vent when you need too.....

            REMEMBER - NOTHING IS FOREVER - though we wish it was!!! And some things are only for a short time in our lives.... and often we have to make decisions that change our lives drasticaly to maintain some balance in our lives....
            Minny

            "It's amazing the paths that our feet sometimes follow in life".

            My suggestions are from "personal experience" and research only. Do not consider this as legal advice. Each bankruptcy case is different.

            Comment


              #7
              You mentioned that you did not co-sign on your husband's debts, but that you are an authorized user on some of the credit cards. My understanding is that you can be held responsible for the debt, so you would need to file jointly or get this debt listed as clearly his and his alone through a divorce decree. I would not assume that the creditors won't try to force you to pay this debt. (I am in the opposite situation, have debt that I am the only one who signed for, but by putting my husband as an authorized user, we now have to file jointly or I will go through the entire Chapter 13 then the creditors will start hounding us again, this time him, for the debt that doesn't get paid off in the 13 plan.) Good luck with whatever you do, and consult an attorney on this co-signer vs authorized user issue before making your decisions.
              Filed CH 13 September 17, 2007
              Plan Modified July 8, 2009 from $1100/month to $400/month due to change in income, finally discharged in July of 2013!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by woeisme View Post
                You mentioned that you did not co-sign on your husband's debts, but that you are an authorized user on some of the credit cards. My understanding is that you can be held responsible for the debt, so you would need to file jointly or get this debt listed as clearly his and his alone through a divorce decree. I would not assume that the creditors won't try to force you to pay this debt. (I am in the opposite situation, have debt that I am the only one who signed for, but by putting my husband as an authorized user, we now have to file jointly or I will go through the entire Chapter 13 then the creditors will start hounding us again, this time him, for the debt that doesn't get paid off in the 13 plan.) Good luck with whatever you do, and consult an attorney on this co-signer vs authorized user issue before making your decisions.
                This issues seems to cause confusion for alot of people. Did you sign anything and give your social security number. If not you are an authorized user and not responsible for the debt. If you did give your social security number you are a co-debtor and responsible for the debt.
                At this point since the OP is still just looking at options now might be the time to remove each other as authorized user from each others debt.
                Now slimy collection agencies will try to twist the issue and tell you that an authorized user can be collected on, but generally they are uniformed, ignorant, or just lying.
                Filed: 10/26/2006
                Discharged: 03/05/2007
                Closed: 5/19/2008 - Asset case due to balance transfer and income tax refund

                Comment


                  #9
                  Don't Cry ...

                  I realize my problems are even greater than bankruptcy can solve. I'm not religious, but I think I should go talk to a priest or someone in the clergy. I really have no one to talk to as I come from a very small family with only one sibling. I just don't know what to do. I just sit at the computer, read bankruptcy posts, and cry all day long.

                  Here you will find the comfort of strangers.

                  I'm pretty much done with my case, just waiting for it to close. Since I work on night shift I decided to stick around and its interesting to listen to peoples stories how they got into Bk to begin with what obstacles they face and how they have overcome them. I'd also like to think with what little I know, and from what I've personally experienced I'm somewhat helpful. You will feel much comfort from these people on this forum. Alot of great advice based on personal experiences, so take notes, the more knowledge you have about filing Bk the easier it will be for you because you will be prepared.

                  I hope you are well, and feel free to "vent," letting it out is better than holding it in. Eventually you will be able to "let go," and be able to move on with your life, you may not see it right now, right this instant, but I bet a couple of months - 1 year from now, you will be able to look back tell us how wonderful life is for you!

                  Wishing you well, Catchmeifyoucan
                  July 2006: Filed Ch13 :blink:
                  Oct 2006: Converted to Ch7 :clapping:
                  Jan 2007: DISCHARGED :clapping:
                  Nov 2007: CLOSED :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

                  Comment

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