Hello Gang, old member here, now back as victim of fraud.

[catleg]

So I've built up quite a large coin collection in the years since my chapter 13/7 discharge (2013), and decided to start selling them on ebay.
That turned into a problem when an ebay buyer in California decided to rob me of a gold 1oz american buffalo coin by first claiming it was damaged, then demanding a refund. Of course, he is given a return shipping label and he sends back an empty box. But wait that's the good part of the story.
So ebay front line support only saw a tracking number come back from the perp, and forcibly extracted a refund from my bank account. I got my facts together, Ebay high value fraud team investigates and says that i won on appeal and the refund is reversed. I get my money back but I never got the coin. But that's still a win for the good guys in my book.
So now in my mind, I decide to befriend every customer so I can detect frauds like this better in the future. And I'm trying to get off ebay as much as possible. So enters my life: an Asian buyer of precious metals from the outskirts of Atlanta. He offers me a decent price for a bunch of random US mint gold coins I've gathered over the years. it adds up to around 40,000. He says invoice me through Paypal. I figure ok they've got seller protection and he pays the invoices ahead of shipment. So I ship him the coins Fedex , put the tracking # into paypal, he acknowledges receipt, paypal gives me money - 3.5%, everybody's happy.
So a few weeks later I'm looking to sell some junk silver, about 25, 000 worth. I also sold him 4 double eagles for $8000/ I email this guy he gives me a fair price (18 x on silver coins) and I fill up a flat rate priority mail box and ship it registered mail. Same deal with paypal , i send him invoice , he pays, insert tracking # into paypal, he accepts the order, paypal pays me - 3.5%.
OK so third time, I sell him 17 gold coins worth about 35,000 plus some IKE silver dollars , total about 36k. I invoice him he pays.
I ship it registered mail again , put the tracking into paypal again, this time, eh ,they're going to hold my money for a little longer even after everything else was the same as before. Paypal releases some money on Thursday (he got the coins last Monday) , I withdraw about 24k in parts,with other parts being declined along the way. Finally Paypal just says your money is on a long term hold for 180 days because you've got so much risk with this guy, what if he does a chargeback?
Anyway today I look him up in truthfinder.com and it says he filed chapter 7 BK on May 2 ,before even the last invoice got paid(May 3-4) .
So at this point I've got 12k locked up in Paypal and potential exposure to 85-90k in chargebacks.

So I remembered my old friends on bkforum and I see many of you are still here.
Assuming this isn't a case of mistaken identity , I figure, well ,the last bunch is non dischargeable but may get charged back to me anyway. The earlier payments fall within the 90 days pre-filing window for presumptive fraud, and non dischargeable, but may get charged back to me anyway.
I start to wonder if paypal already knew about the filing last week but hasn't told me yet. And he's in Georgia, which is supposedly a creditor friendly state.
So anybody got any ideas? I'm thinking at a bare minimum I ought to be able to get his case tossed, I can print out pages and pages of emails of me and him negotiatng the deal ,photos of the coins, and mailing receipts. I suppose there's a remote chance his credit cards will eat the write off and not charge it back to paypal. I could document all this in a letter to the US trustee's office, the local trustee ,and the judge.
Or should write to his lawyer and let him know i just want my coins back and i'll keep my mouth shut.
Just pouring out ideas here. I'm not thinking too clearly tonight so any help will be appreciated.
First meeting of creditors in June 27.
If someone has an active pacer account and could download the petition let me know.I'll refrain from posting the case number for now.
Thanks!

[justbroke]

I can't tell you what will happen. If the Chapter 7 Trustee thinks that there are coins which are non-exempt, this could get interesting. I don't even know what to tell you. Just the large transactions within 90-days of the filing of the bankruptcy may rise to something fraudulent (e.g., converting cash into coins that can be hidden). Too much to speculate as to what is going on with this debtor.

You should probably consult an attorney -- that would represent you -- to see what they think, but I wouldn't call/write the debtor's attorney. Maybe despritfreya has dealt with something similar where the debtor is buying things up to and after the filing date.

[despritfreya]

Cat,

Good to “see” you. Sorry such is under these circumstances. I do not know how ebay works but, in general, please note the following:

1. 523(a)(2) (C) does not apply. You were in a business transaction with the debtor. The provision only applies to consumer transactions.

2. If the Chapter 7 Trustee comes knocking to recover monies paid within the 90 days prior to filing you may have a defense to such recovery. Look at 11 USC 547 (c)(1).

3. Even if the docket still shows this as a no asset case, get a proof of claim on file for any amounts still owed to you. Please review 11 USC 503(b)(9). If you provided goods and services within 20 day prior to the filing and have not been paid, you may have an administrative expenses claim.

As to seeking to either dismiss his case or filing a 523(a)(2)(a) complaint, you certainly can try. In all likelihood, while he knew he was in financial trouble when contracting with you, he probably thought he could pull himself out. This happens all the time, especially when dealing with business transactions.

If you have not already done so, get a PACER account to follow the case. I have no doubt the Trustee will be looking carefully at the debtor’s business affairs. This may very well be an asset case. Georgia may have a way for creditors to get electronic notification and copies of documents filed in the case - check the court's website under the creditors information category.

Keep us posted. As you do so, I will try to put in my 2 cents.

Des.

[catleg]

So, looking back on the transactions, Paypal is the middle party, which would have a claim against me. I don't know if the Dude paid Paypal with cash (bank account money ) or credit cards. I assumed credit cards, but it could just as easily be cash for the purpose of hiding it from the BK trustee. I'm just in a weird position of having to ride this out as a "potential creditor" depending on how Paypal goes. If they get any chargebacks then I'm a creditor, if not then I'm not involved. It's truly a weird and scary position to be in.

[catleg]

OK guys I got the skinny on this from my Dude, he says it's a relation of his and he is doing fine. Thanks for the kind advice.

[justbroke]

Your concern is deserved and I'm glad it turned out that your dude is not the dude that filed bankruptcy!

[catleg]

Yes I definitely learned a valuable lesson here about dealing with credit cards as a seller or vendor. Best stick to t-shirts and other cheap stuff, for rare coins take bank wires only!