Leaving the US with debts instead of filing BK

[nozar]

Background:
When Covid hit in spring 2020, I stopped being able to pay my debts. I retained a bankruptcy attorney but haven't filed yet because I'm waiting for the IRS to clarify how much tax I owe. No creditor has contacted me in over a year. In the meantime I left the US for a country with a much lower costs of living. Since almost two years had passed and I haven't been sued yet, my attorney advised to wait & see, because the statute will expire in 2 more years.

Question:
flashoflight suggested this:

I think you're grossly underestimating how miserable life will be with debt collectors hounding you unless you leave the US for good.

If you owe several creditors (credit card and loan companies) amounts between $20k and $80k, what's the advantage in leaving the US?

I don't care if creditors resume calling my Google Voice number or sending letters. I don't own any property in the US (or a home/boat/car anywhere), and don't have a job to be garnished. US bank accounts can be cleared out into confiscation-proof stablecoins.

I know that if you owe tax to the IRS, they can chase you internationally, but I'm not talking about that. I'll be paying the remainder of my due taxes when the IRS figures out how much I owe.

I'm asking about consumer debt under $80k per creditor - what happens if you leave the US? From my experience so far, nothing different vs. staying in the US, until/if you get sued?

And then what? You don't show up in court, so the creditors automatically win. Your bank accounts might get frozen (with nothing left in them), or your non-existent job garnished. The worst would be for your crypto debit cards to get frozen (if someone looks for those? They do have your SSN), but you can open others outside of the US (and declare stuff via FBAR if need be).

So why did flashoflight bring up leaving the US?

What about returning to the US after the statute expires?

[despritfreya]

In the meantime I left the US for a country with a much lower costs of living. Since almost two years had passed and I haven't been sued yet, my attorney advised to wait & see, because the statute will expire in 2 more years.

If your attorney told you leaving the Country and waiting works, I recommend finding a new one. As far as I know, every State has a statute that tolls the running of the SOL if one leaves the jurisdiction. California is no different. See Section 351 of the California Code of Civil Procedure. If the contract with the creditor has a forum selection provision you will have to check the state that is chosen for its tolling provision. So, if you never return to the US you are probably good to go (no comment on the application of the Hague Convention). But, if you plan to come back, keep looking over your shoulder.

Des.

[nozar]

Thanks for confirming the tolling.

I've looked up the Hague Convention re. debts but it seems to only apply to commercial debt?

I'm curious about more practical details re. coming back to the US, say for a vacation rather than to live there again. Or even to live again in the US, in, but not in the original jurisdiction (there's nothing for me there anymore). I couldn't find anything precise and applicable in various articles online. I don't have a US passport to be revoked (nor do I owe more than $51k in tax), I don't have assets in the US, my debts were $80k max (no idea re. penalties - where would I even look? AMEX/etc. suspended my login), I don't have a US-based remote job to be garnished, and I'm already settled outside of the US (something the articles make a huge deal out of; it's not).

So what exactly should I keep looking over my shoulder for?

Being stopped at the border by the CBP? Not for consumer debt, AFAICT. Even if I wanted to obtain citizenship, the debts shouldn't be a hindrance, because the Public Charge final rule is no longer in effect (also, I've never used any unemployment or other public benefits), and the determination of moral character doesn't look at non-tax debts.

Bounty hunters who stalk my social media and see that I'm back in the US?

Other methods of contacting me work wherever I am (mail, phone). No difference if I'm in the US or not. Same for filing a lawsuit against me and seizing my accounts if I don't appear or lose the lawsuit. Same for extending the lawsuit so I'm obligated to pay for the rest of my life, regardless of the SOL.

Pinging justbroke re. this thread per their advice.

[justbroke]

nozar you can always update your own, older, thread. The reason for not resurrecting old posts is because a.) the original poster may no longer be around, and/or b.) the data is now stale (laws changed, position changed).

[bornfree2]

nozar - Covid did a number to my financial picture as well. If the original creditors hasnt sued you in two years its a good chance your debt has been sold and resold half dozen times.

The further away from the original creditor, the easier it is to fight the debt collectors in court. I suggest you read this treatsie https://library.nclc.org/ca/0401-0 . In particular read up on Chapter 4 . Its full of ways to attack a debt collection suit.

(hint: they rely on the monthly statement, your own admissions in Request For Admissions they send you, and robosigned affidavidts. The right to the debt they buy is 'evidenced' soley through a spreadsheet of account numbers, last balance due...not an actual contract. In short, there are MANY holes in their paper trail. Its a dirty business that relies on consumer ignorance and a very favorable court system. read here)

If you are out of country, its going to be hard for them to do personal service. However, i think in california they just need to show they tried 3 times and the local court will allow it to go through. Since you wont show up you will default, and then the usual dominos will fall. But why give in so easily? Fight and make them earn it.)

You can periodically check to see if there is any cases filed against you by going to https://unicourt.com/ and searching for your name under 'party'. They limit you to a few searches... with a VPN/proxy perhaps a handful more. And of course you can subscribe. Anyways, you check your name once a week and you will find out if a suit is lobbied against you.

If it is, then you can immediately attack them with a demand for bill of particulars as well as quash of service. You will see the flimsy evidence they have (cause they have to buy it from the original creditor). Never provide an email/phone# and let them mail you their letters and fat packages internationally at a high cost to them. Well, of course these are things better left to a lawyer. But you can safely drown your new penpals with discovery requests for a long time at no cost to you (other than your time which is significant) if you do it solo. Thats what that book i mentioned above is all about.

You can also demand arbitration which costs the debt collector $5000 or so which comes out of their own pocket. Becareful with this option because your discovery rights become more limited. You want to stay in public court not some private room arbitration. But is a way to call their bluff. My memory is flakey on this but you can research.

You basically become expensive and a pain in the ass for them to litigate..and since you are abroad then its kind of implied you are judgement proof..so they may just dismiss the case. Let your statutes of limitations run out (i think its 4 years in california) and you may just have cleared out your debts without a BK.

And if you screw all the above, you can still clear it up with a BK.

As for public charge, immigration, etc, i dont know much about that. But I think we saw when El Trumpo was in charge, the policies of the country can change very quickly towards outsiders. So dont rely on today's grace when tomorrow it may haunt you.

Learn about your rights, learn the legal procedure, and your outlook will expand.
I am not a lawyer these are just my opinions. Do your own research and seek qualified legal help.

[despritfreya]

I've looked up the Hague Convention re. debts but it seems to only apply to commercial debt?

I have used the provisions twice to obtain jurisdiction over people and I was not dealing with commercial debt.

So what exactly should I keep looking over my shoulder for?

You move back and are found, you get served if alternative service has not already been invoked - judgment gets entered. You then leave and never return or stay and never work or have a bank account - more power to you.

Des.

[nozar]

Thanks for the resources, bornfree2
! I'll read through the NCLC Chapter 4.

Couple of notes in the meantime...

nozar - Covid did a number to my financial picture as well. If the original creditors hasnt sued you in two years its a good chance your debt has been sold and resold half dozen times.

I have consumer debt - credit cards like American Express, and personal loans likes of LightStream.

If my debt has been resold, how can I find out its current likely value? I've been reading that debts can be settled "at pennies for the dollar", and I'd rather go that route than have a bankruptcy on my record.

I guess the only way is to contact the current debt holder / collection agency, but how do I even find out who they are?

And won't calling and asking for a settlement figure equate to an admission of debt?

The further away from the original creditor, the easier it is to fight the debt collectors in court. I suggest you read this treatsie https://library.nclc.org/ca/0401-0 . In particular read up on Chapter 4 . Its full of ways to attack a debt collection suit.

(hint: they rely on the monthly statement, your own admissions in Request For Admissions they send you, and robosigned affidavidts. The right to the debt they buy is 'evidenced' soley through a spreadsheet of account numbers, last balance due...not an actual contract. In short, there are MANY holes in their paper trail. Its a dirty business that relies on consumer ignorance and a very favorable court system. read here)

The debt *was* mine, and surely large companies like AMEX or LightStream can easily provide plenty of proof that it was mine, and that I haven't paid it. Can't I also be asked point blank, under penalty of perjury, if the debt is mine? I'm surprised it would be so easy to weasel out of real debt like this, in court.

If you are out of country, its going to be hard for them to do personal service.

All my creditors have my mailing address (a virtual mailbox), email, and phone number. I've been keeping all these current since I accrued the debts. Yet I have not been contacted through any of these methods. When the debt is sold to a collection agency, isn't the debtor's contact information passed along? Seems like the most basic thing to do.

You can periodically check to see if there is any cases filed against you by going to https://unicourt.com/ and searching for your name under 'party'.

Thanks, Unicourt seems like an amazing resource (it found nothing in my name), and too good to be true. I've searched for "How to find out if I've been sued", and absolutely nobody (Quora, law offices blogs - nobody) mentioned Unicourt. How come?!

Never provide an email/phone# and let them mail you their letters and fat packages internationally at a high cost to them.

How would they know my international address? The collection agencies should already have my email and phone number and US mailing address from the original creditors. And when I call, they'll see my caller ID (sure, I could use a burner phone...).

You can also demand arbitration which costs the debt collector $5000 or so which comes out of their own pocket.

That sounds dangerous. Loan terms often specifically mention, "I agree to pay you all amounts, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, and collection agency, court and other collection costs that you incur in collecting or enforcing the terms of my Loan".

Let your statutes of limitations run out (i think its 4 years in california) and you may just have cleared out your debts without a BK.

As pointed out earlier, the status tolls while the debtor is not in the jurisdiction.

[bornfree2]

If my debt has been resold, how can I find out its current likely value? I've been reading that debts can be settled "at pennies for the dollar", and I'd rather go that route than have a bankruptcy on my record.

Your credit report shows the activity on the debt. There is a cut off / charge off amount, then if they get a judgement pre-judgment interest which is set by state law (i think 10% in California). The debt collectors letter must include this information when they initially contact you (the dunning letter). In addition, if they win they can collect attorney fees BUT those are capped per cause of action (usually 'open book' and 'account stated'). I think its $700+ in each count.

I guess the only way is to contact the current debt holder / collection agency, but how do I even find out who they are?

And won't calling and asking for a settlement figure equate to an admission of debt?

The debt *was* mine, and surely large companies like AMEX or LightStream can easily provide plenty of proof that it was mine, and that I haven't paid it. Can't I also be asked point blank, under penalty of perjury, if the debt is mine? I'm surprised it would be so easy to weasel out of real debt like this, in court.

There is no 'real debt', only alleged debt owed by an alleged person belonging to an alleged owner/collector because of an alleged contract.

When I was sued I asked myself who on earth are these xyz collectors and what right did they have to have me pay them for an alleged debt i had with original creditor??

When they sue they are making a claim, and its on THEM to prove it. Thus the debt is only alleged until proven true. And THEY need to provide the evidence not you. Heck they need to first prove the debt the bought is mine and if they have the rights.

Even in bankruptcy it refers to debts as 'claims' and creditors must file 'proof of claims'. (But in BK that standard is ridiculously low for the creditor so your chances of 'show me the evidence' kind of fight are stronger in state court).

But yeah if you call up, they likely record the call, and they will get all the proof they need out of your own mouth and not have to show any paper trail. Your confession and 'good intentions' is all they need.

This includes going online and on forums like this one and telling everyone specifics and admissions.

Again i suggest you thoroughly read that consumer link i gave because it explains this scam game very well. Everything is alleged and must be proven. And if you want to fight it, you can make them prove it. The deeper you go down the rabbit hole the more you will see its actually hard for them to prove the case.

You will also learn how to not have to admit nor deny anything in a request for admissions...read the book it has good hints on that. You will learn about affidavidts, notaries, debt assignment,etc. There is a lot that goes into their scam.

BUT they win because they know the legal procedure and you are a beginner. AND because the courts have little mercy for the pro se rocky guy who wants to fight his credit card company on demands of proofs, etc. Its very stacked against the little guy.

I think the 'pennies on the dollar' idea is for people that get a discharge in BK. Others you may get a reduction of 30-70%?

Thanks, Unicourt seems like an amazing resource, and too good to be true. I've searched for "How to find out if I've been sued", and absolutely nobody (Quora, law offices blogs - nobody) mentioned Unicourt. How come?!

Because google blog spam is a thing

How would they know my international address? The collection agencies should already have my email and phone number and US mailing address from the original creditors. And when I call, they'll see my caller ID (sure, I could use a burner phone...).

This has nothing to do when you are in a case. In a case both sides need to give permission to the other for electronic/telephonic contact. If they do, and you dont thats okay. But if you voluntarily call them or email them then its implicit you are agreeing to contact that way. Thus, I kept all my communications via mail.

That sounds dangerous. Loan terms often specifically mention, "I agree to pay you all amounts, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, and collection agency, court and other collection costs that you incur in collecting or enforcing the terms of my Loan".

Yes they love to sneak in terms that you agree to only because you opened your statement. Its a contract of adhesion. But just cause they say it doesnt mean the law will recognize it right? they cant say 'you agree to be our slave'. Does that make it so?

Just remember your conduct is voluntary and is an agreement and usually a waiver of your rights.

Lastly be extremely careful out there because you are dealing with sharks that can and DO know how to butcher you. So be smart but dont poke the bear too hard.

If you can negotiate and settle for less then thats probably the best move for everyone. If you want to fight, be prepared for war.

This is a great read https://www.masslegalservices.org/sy...on_Suits_t.pdf

And remember im not a lawyer and this is not legal advice AT ALL. This is just my opinion and how I approached things. Learn the law and your rights and it is eye opening in a red pill matrix kind of way.