Warning: The following is long, boring and might cause severe brain cramps if read.
Well, we've decided to drop our attorney and go it alone. We do this even knowing that the attorney is not likely to refund any of our $2000 retainer.
Why are we doing this? you ask... Well, many reasons.
#1. Took the attorney over 6 weeks to fill out the first draft of our Chapter 7 petition... when the send it to us for "approval" it is full of errors... and not just errors where they didn't have the information... but errors like spelling my wifes name right in some spots and wrong in others... errors like using only one of my paycheck stubs per month in calculating my income.... even though I get paid twice a month (thus having it look like I make half what I really make). Errors like not using the few paltry exemptions that we legally are entitled to. Errors like using the median income figures from last year.
Believe it or not, I could go on for a while yet.
We figured this was odd... them making so many mistakes... but hey, it was only a first draft... so we sent it back with the corrections listed out in a neatly typed and labled document.
This brings me to reason #2.
#2. After receiving our corrections, it takes the Attorney another 2+ weeks to get us a second draft... and when we get that second draft... half the errors we pointed out in the first draft are not corrected and there are NEW errors that now need to be fixed.
We send the changes in again and then schedule and appointment to go over the "final" draft, sign it and file.
#3. We get there to do the final and we spend an hour pointing out the mistakes that are STILL in the petition... some of which have been there since the first draft.
We get all of those corrected and notice that, on the petition, our gross income is listed as one amount on one page and a different amount on another page... not a huge difference, but different. We look at it and see that it's because they didn't account for a 401k contribution that was made out of one paycheck 4 months ago... no big deal right? Wrong... when WE show HIM where this discrepancy came from by showing him the pay stubs (which he has had the entire time) he looks at the pay stub and says, "oh! I think we've used the wrong gross income figures. I think you're over the median income. You'll probably have to file a 13."
We're stunned at this point as we've told him the ENTIRE time we worked with him that our primary goal was to get a Chapter 7... irregardless of what assets they would sell etc.
This confusion over the gross income figure is due to the fact that my company lists the amount that they pay for my medical insurance on my paycheck as "flex dollars". and that number shows up in the "total gross" income figure on the pay stub. If you ask them for an income statement, they give you a number without the flex dollars, if you look at all of the W2's and other tax forms, they show numbers without the flex dollars. If you look at the Census data where the median income figures come from, they specifically say that these numbers do NOT include medical benefits.
Thus, you would think, the flex dollars are NOT income.... right? Well, he says, I think the trustee will count it as income and so I think you need to file a chapter 13.
I say, should we not even TRY to file a 7? He said, well, we could probably make a good argument for it, but we'll still probably end up with a motion to convert to a 13. So you should just file the 13.
I say, Why shouldn't we TRY the 7? What do we lose if we try and get converted to a 13? He says... Well it would cost you more money because you'd have to pay me for the chapter 7 filiing and then for the 13.
I say, but wouldn't the chapter 13 fees just come out of the chapter 13 debt payments? He says, uh, oh... well, yeah, that's true.... but I still wouldn't recommend filing a chapter 7.
So I say, well what about the means test, do we really fail it, is there any way we can pass that? He says, no, you have extra funds of $411 per month.
I get the means test forms from him today... and guess what?
You guessed it... they're filled out wrong.
#1. He doesn't show my car payment of $669, he only uses the IRS allowed expense of 471.
#2. Since it's a chapter 13 and you're supposed to list all secured debt, you'd list the boat payment that, under a chapter 7, I would have given back, but would keep if I had to do a 13... he doesn't list it at all.
#3. He only uses 1/2 months worth of cost for medical insurance.... and puts it into the wrong line... he uses the line that is for medical expenses NOT covered by insurance... things like medication, co-pays, deductables etc.
#4. Since he has used the column for medical expenses to put my medical insurance payment on... he doesn't include ANY medical expenses.
Every time I've talked to this guy it has become more and more obvious to me that he couldn't care less if he helps me or not. He wants to collect the largest fee for the least amount of work that he can possible do.
Anyway, so thats why we're dumping this guy... we figure that we'd rather have ourselves in there, well informed amatures who will do our best to get what is best for ourselves, than to have an attorney who doesn't want to be there and who will do whatever is quickest and easiest.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled forums.
Oh and to those who read all this and now have severe brain cramps... don't say I didn't warn you!
Well, we've decided to drop our attorney and go it alone. We do this even knowing that the attorney is not likely to refund any of our $2000 retainer.
Why are we doing this? you ask... Well, many reasons.
#1. Took the attorney over 6 weeks to fill out the first draft of our Chapter 7 petition... when the send it to us for "approval" it is full of errors... and not just errors where they didn't have the information... but errors like spelling my wifes name right in some spots and wrong in others... errors like using only one of my paycheck stubs per month in calculating my income.... even though I get paid twice a month (thus having it look like I make half what I really make). Errors like not using the few paltry exemptions that we legally are entitled to. Errors like using the median income figures from last year.
Believe it or not, I could go on for a while yet.
We figured this was odd... them making so many mistakes... but hey, it was only a first draft... so we sent it back with the corrections listed out in a neatly typed and labled document.
This brings me to reason #2.
#2. After receiving our corrections, it takes the Attorney another 2+ weeks to get us a second draft... and when we get that second draft... half the errors we pointed out in the first draft are not corrected and there are NEW errors that now need to be fixed.
We send the changes in again and then schedule and appointment to go over the "final" draft, sign it and file.
#3. We get there to do the final and we spend an hour pointing out the mistakes that are STILL in the petition... some of which have been there since the first draft.
We get all of those corrected and notice that, on the petition, our gross income is listed as one amount on one page and a different amount on another page... not a huge difference, but different. We look at it and see that it's because they didn't account for a 401k contribution that was made out of one paycheck 4 months ago... no big deal right? Wrong... when WE show HIM where this discrepancy came from by showing him the pay stubs (which he has had the entire time) he looks at the pay stub and says, "oh! I think we've used the wrong gross income figures. I think you're over the median income. You'll probably have to file a 13."
We're stunned at this point as we've told him the ENTIRE time we worked with him that our primary goal was to get a Chapter 7... irregardless of what assets they would sell etc.
This confusion over the gross income figure is due to the fact that my company lists the amount that they pay for my medical insurance on my paycheck as "flex dollars". and that number shows up in the "total gross" income figure on the pay stub. If you ask them for an income statement, they give you a number without the flex dollars, if you look at all of the W2's and other tax forms, they show numbers without the flex dollars. If you look at the Census data where the median income figures come from, they specifically say that these numbers do NOT include medical benefits.
Thus, you would think, the flex dollars are NOT income.... right? Well, he says, I think the trustee will count it as income and so I think you need to file a chapter 13.
I say, should we not even TRY to file a 7? He said, well, we could probably make a good argument for it, but we'll still probably end up with a motion to convert to a 13. So you should just file the 13.
I say, Why shouldn't we TRY the 7? What do we lose if we try and get converted to a 13? He says... Well it would cost you more money because you'd have to pay me for the chapter 7 filiing and then for the 13.
I say, but wouldn't the chapter 13 fees just come out of the chapter 13 debt payments? He says, uh, oh... well, yeah, that's true.... but I still wouldn't recommend filing a chapter 7.
So I say, well what about the means test, do we really fail it, is there any way we can pass that? He says, no, you have extra funds of $411 per month.
I get the means test forms from him today... and guess what?
You guessed it... they're filled out wrong.
#1. He doesn't show my car payment of $669, he only uses the IRS allowed expense of 471.
#2. Since it's a chapter 13 and you're supposed to list all secured debt, you'd list the boat payment that, under a chapter 7, I would have given back, but would keep if I had to do a 13... he doesn't list it at all.
#3. He only uses 1/2 months worth of cost for medical insurance.... and puts it into the wrong line... he uses the line that is for medical expenses NOT covered by insurance... things like medication, co-pays, deductables etc.
#4. Since he has used the column for medical expenses to put my medical insurance payment on... he doesn't include ANY medical expenses.
Every time I've talked to this guy it has become more and more obvious to me that he couldn't care less if he helps me or not. He wants to collect the largest fee for the least amount of work that he can possible do.
Anyway, so thats why we're dumping this guy... we figure that we'd rather have ourselves in there, well informed amatures who will do our best to get what is best for ourselves, than to have an attorney who doesn't want to be there and who will do whatever is quickest and easiest.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled forums.
Oh and to those who read all this and now have severe brain cramps... don't say I didn't warn you!
)
Comment