EBay collections - not included in BK?

[tazunemono]

OK I received another call from IC Systems trying to collect on this EBay Debt. Again.

The dates are:

• April 17, item sold on Ebay.
• April 25, buyer initiated the "dispute process"
• My BK was filed April 27
• Item refunded on May 5
• Collections activity after May 5

The "original action" of the sale was before my BK, but the refund and attempt at collections is "post-filing" so not be covered by my BK?

I would rather pay the $26 to add them to my schedules than to pay them $135 + fees for a broken laptop I cannot resell.

What should I do? The collections guy on the phone was adamant that they could collect from me because of the collection dates being "past" my filing date. Can anyone weigh in on whether they would dispute this transaction if I added it to my schedules?

Will adding them to my schedules affect my discharge date? I'm nearly halfway through my 60 day period (discharge due Aug. 6) ... will their lawyers object for $135?

Looking for the best advice on how to proceed...thanks!

[tobee43]

the collections guy is full of it as usual. it's from the date the debt occurred which was actually prior to your filing. since bk is not closed i would add them to your petition and pay the $35, i think that's an excellent idea. some say all debts are included i say nope as all creditors have a right to notice of the procedure of your bk.

if you get a call again from this collection agency i would advise them to call your atty, but go and do the amendment on the petition asap. it should not effect your discharge date as it's just a small over-site. i would say if you added 50k onto the petition that may raise an eyebrow or two or three, but $135, i think not. this is just what i would do.best of luck to whatever you decide!

[tazunemono]

I'm also a no asset case. I read online that the creditor not having notice of bankruptcy did not deprive them of the right to get paid anything so they were not prejudiced (negatively affected) by failure to have originally listed them...maybe just a strongly worded letter asking them to back off is enough? "Look, I'm a no-asset BK Ch 7, do you REALLY want to try to collect anything from me??"

Or, will I need to amend my schedules, pay the filing fee, serve notice on the creditor (IC Systems), etc.?

I'm just worried that if I amend to add them, they will immediately object. That would cause adversarial proceedings, and I don't want to go there. I really don't think they will over $135

[Pandora]

Thats why I stopped selling on ebay - they favor the buyer each and every time.

Hitting on what Frogger posted - UPS does automatically insure to $100 with every shipment; anything over that amount you must pay additional monies for. I'd take it up with UPS - however you must have proof you packaged it accordingly (i.e., pictures).

In the future if you continue to sell on ebay - do what we did: demand insurance is required and put on your listings "Seller not responsible for any damages once item leaves their possession - no refunds, no returns, all items as is". Whether or not that still applies on ebay now I dont know, but we had it in all our listings.

[tazunemono]

This is what I'm reading: "A "no asset" bankruptcy is where there is nothing of value, after claiming available exemptions, to be turned over to the trustee for distribution among the creditors. In this case, many courts will allow an unclaimed debt or forgotten debt to be considered written off under the bankruptcy code. You should check with the attorney who filed your case to see if this applies to your petition.

For practical purposes, however, even if your court allows this kind of write off, it may be difficult to convince the creditor who owns the debt that the debt is no longer owed. They may continue to harass you for collection until you have provided proof that you filed for bankruptcy. An amended petition that adds the forgotten debt may be the best advice."

[tobee43]

Thats why I stopped selling on ebay - they favor the buyer each and every time.

Hitting on what Frogger posted - UPS does automatically insure to $100 with every shipment; anything over that amount you must pay additional monies for. I'd take it up with UPS - however you must have proof you packaged it accordingly (i.e., pictures).

In the future if you continue to sell on ebay - do what we did: demand insurance is required and put on your listings "Seller not responsible for any damages once item leaves their possession - no refunds, no returns, all items as is". Whether or not that still applies on ebay now I dont know, but we had it in all our listings.

only when you purchase via the post office directly can you get the insurance. i have also a uspo account, as well as using the shipping off of ebay. however, here is THAT issue....i had at least 3 claims with US postal insurance and not a ONE paid. these were on personal items i shipped out not ebay issues thankfully. what that experience did do for me was see the insurance didn't help anyway. we have no local UPS offices around anywhere i have ever lived, so they are off my list as shippers.

ebay has you by the throat if you want to continue to sell items. i know for us it's our gas and food money many months when no work comes in for me. (not that i'm not busy enough lately) but we still need to strive for more income if i want to pay off my house


taxunemono: in theory what you are stating is correct, but it must be noted that although you read under the code that all should be forgiven in a no asset case, the creditor has a right to complain, and has the argument, as it is also part of the code that all creditors get proper notification from the bk court. so, if they insist on pressing it, it is just going to be a pain.

i have another suggestion for you. block the calls and write them the letter as someone mentioned with a copy of your discarge and call it a day. i would also remind them if they continue to attempt to contact you in reference to this debt, you file a complaint with the FTC. send it certified signed receipt requested and really that SHOULD be the end of this story. or, amend the return.

[malf1204]

I had a similar situation with my old homeowners insurance company. I had cancelled the insurance prior to filing No asset BK and 6 months after discharge they sent me to collection claiming I owed them 3 months premiums. I did not include them because I did not know about the debt. They filed suit in state court and I kept telling them that all the money they allege I owed them was pre-BK filing they would not listen. I filed a motion with the BK court to re-open the case and a request for an order to show cause. I asked the Judge if I needed to amend my lsit of creditors and matrix and he said "No" the debt has already been discharged but we need to give the creditor an opportunity to challenge the discharge as they were not originally notified of the filing". The court simply sent them a notice ordering them to file an adversary proceeding withing 21 days if they wished to contest the discharge and if they did not file in 21 days all collections activity must cease because the debt was discharged. I heard nothing else from them and the case was dismissed in state court.

[tobee43]

I had a similar situation with my old homeowners insurance company. I had cancelled the insurance prior to filing No asset BK and 6 months after discharge they sent me to collection claiming I owed them 3 months premiums. I did not include them because I did not know about the debt. They filed suit in state court and I kept telling them that all the money they allege I owed them was pre-BK filing they would not listen. I filed a motion with the BK court to re-open the case and a request for an order to show cause. I asked the Judge if I needed to amend my lsit of creditors and matrix and he said "No" the debt has already been discharged but we need to give the creditor an opportunity to challenge the discharge as they were not originally notified of the filing". The court simply sent them a notice ordering them to file an adversary proceeding withing 21 days if they wished to contest the discharge and if they did not file in 21 days all collections activity must cease because the debt was discharged. I heard nothing else from them and the case was dismissed in state court.

perfect example of how to !!!

[Bell30656]

The way I am reading your history is that eBay paid out the money on your behalf on May 5th which is after your bankruptcy filing. I don't how a court would read it. But I look at it from a different way, do you sell a lot on eBay? What is your eBay account worth to you? You can probably get this added to your bankruptcy saving you $109 but losing that eBay account with its feedback, history and reputation. eBay may not even have your social security number and this may never show up on any credit report. Mine didn't. New accounts on PayPal/eBay don't get instant access to their money when they sell something. Now, PayPal holds that money until so many days after delivery.

[malf1204]

There is a contract between ebay and the seller that allows them to "charge-back" the seller. I would think that the contract is void upon BK filing. Lets look at this another way. If I stay in a hotel this weekend and use my credit card to pay the charges, declare Bankruptcy on Monday and the hotel charges my card the day after the bk filing for a room service bill that was not added on the original final bill am I liable for this since the "charge" ocurred after the bk filing? I do not think so as the act occurred prior. My argument would be that Ebays refund was part of the dispute transaction which was initiated prior to BK filing. So the alleged act that caused the debt (in this case sending incorrect or damaged merchandise) occurred prior to bk. This is just my opinion.

[Bell30656]

You are probably right Malf, but either way that eBay user name will be history. eBay will block this account. If the account is important to the OP then the OP should pay the small amount to keep it. When the OP gets a new account and sells something her feedback rating will be 0. The money from sales of items will be held for a 10 days or so after each sale.

[bcohen]

I also call bullsh** on the collection agency's theory that the debt is still owed because it didn't go to collections until after your BK filing date. The Ebay sale which triggered this alleged debt occured BEFORE the bankruptcy, and this is no different than a medical bill which comes in after bankruptcy for services rendered before--the debt is still discharged. Likewise, a lawsuit or potential lawsuit resulting from an auto accident which occurred before filing is discharged (assuming no DUI alcohol/drugs) even if the suit is filed months later.

If you want to spend the $26 to amend your schedules, do it. That will allow you to pursue violations against the collection agency. However, even if you DON'T amend the schedules, the debt is still discharged.

[catleg]

I would think that if Ebay has already sent it to outside collections, your ebay account is probably NARU'd already (not a registered user).
If that is the case then there is certainly no point in paying; otherwise it's a judgement call whether your feedback history has any value to you.
There is also the issue of your internal credit history with Ebay/paypal and how that might be affected. Just because it is a forced write off does not force them to forget that you "stiffed" them in a transaction.
Kind of like how Amex never forgets a writeoff.

[Bk4me]

If you used paypal they will send you to collection

[Bell30656]

Catleg, I'd say that you are most likely right. When I started getting the calls from PayPal's collection agency (they call from UT, BTW) they assured me that paying the debt would make my account in good standing with PayPal/eBay, however they would not put it in writing. They didn't get paid. I have a new eBay/PayPal account now. Every time I sell something (which isn't often) they hold my funds for a couple weeks before giving me my money.