top Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ch 7 to be dismissed shortly, getting prepared for collections

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Ch 7 to be dismissed shortly, getting prepared for collections

    We filed a Ch 7 in 12/10, which fell apart due to the Ransom decision. We are about to have our case dismissed. After much research, speaking with lawyers, and thought, we've decided not to convert to a 13 at this time. We did no 13 pre-planning because we easily qualified for the 7 and we filed immediately after we stopped paying our creditors, so we had no legitimate expenses such as child care, medical and dental, car maintenance, etc in the 6 months prior to filing because all of our funds went to our creditors. (I'd do anything to be able to go back in time and pre-plan appropriately.) We also have $40K in student loans, and after 5 years in a 13, we would owe much more than we do now. So for us, a successful 13 wouldn't even be a fresh start.

    End game plan: settle for less than what 5 years of 90% payback payments would be (approximately 72K) and keep the student loan payments current and in full so we can maybe actually pay them off someday. We owe 70K in credit card debt combined. I owe 40 and my husband owes 30. Only 1 account is joint and that's for $800. That account will be paid in full. My income is not very much, his is substantially more. My plan is to settle his accounts first. We are in NC which is a no garnishment state right now, but there is legislature pending that will make garnishment allowable in November. So we need to have at least his accounts taken care of by November, since 25% garnishment of his income is a very different number then 25% of mine. Once his are paid, we can move on to working on mine but if I get garnished, it would take a very long time for 25% of my income to equal anywhere near 72K.

    We've emptied and closed our joint bank account and opened an account just in his name. We've changed our direct deposit to that account. Our employer does not allow paper checks so it has to be direct deposited somewhere, but since we plan to settle all of his debts, we hope that collection efforts won't go as far as a bank levy. If negotiations start to go bad, we'll go to a WalMart money card instead. We have approximately 30% of his debt saved to go toward settlement. We've set up google voice numbers. We've warned our family about calls.

    We own no property aside from 21 and 11 year old cars. We are renting.

    What am I missing/forgetting/overlooking? This is terrifying, but a poorly planned and unlikely to make it to discharge 13 is slightly more terrifying.

    #2
    A tough story I must say. I believe with a better lawyer, the C7 book from Nolo Press (nolo.com) about 26 bucks download pdf, you could with a certain time limit, reapply for a C7. I shall look up the time limit if I feel up to this. (tired tonight).

    I think it is about 3 months and file again. Have your act together and a pro-active lawyer. The automatic stay will be very short though I think.

    You have nothing to give (pay) so you have nothing to lose to try again. 'Hub
    If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

    Comment


      #3
      Our dismissal will be without prejudice, so we can reapply. However, our numbers haven't changed. We have been saving since the day of our 341, when we found out about the Ransom decision, because we were pretty sure we'd be dismissed. We still don't have childcare, haven't caught up on medical/dental, and haven't done any work to the cars. Originally we planned to convert to a 13, so we felt we needed some cushion. Since we lost so much with the Ransom decision, $1K off the means test, we need a lot of expenses to qualify for a 7 and would not qualify at this time. Our other option is to spend the next 6 months building those expenses, and then refile a 13 with more reasonable numbers. Since we now have a cushion, that's actually a very valid option.

      It's primarily my fault for being so scared and not doing proper research beforehand, but our lawyer also sucks big time. It's a bad situation.

      Comment


        #4
        What's the Ransom decision?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by JackBondLove View Post
          What's the Ransom decision?
          Here it is my friend. 'Hub

          Blogger is a blog publishing tool from Google for easily sharing your thoughts with the world. Blogger makes it simple to post text, photos and video onto your personal or team blog.
          If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

          Comment


            #6
            The Ransom decision basically makes it the law -- across the land -- that you can't claim the "national standard" (ownership allowance) of $469/month as a car expense, if you don't have a loan on the car (or a lease)! Some courts were allowing the debtor to deduct the so-called "ownership allowance" even though the debtor had no loan (or lease) on the car!

            The Supreme Court, in Ransom vs. FIA Card Services (Bank of America) made it the undisputed law (in an 8-1 vote) that you cannot take the allowance if you don't have a loan or lease!
            Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
            Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
            Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

            Any advice provided is not legal advice, but simply the musings of a fellow bankrupt.

            Comment


              #7
              wow...interesting
              Ch 7 filed 8/15/11 341 9/22/11 Discharge 11/28/11
              The rebuilding begins

              Comment


                #8
                Our district allowed the deduction, we filed pre-Ransom decision and took the deduction (as advised by our lawyer, nothing shady going on) the decision came down before our 341 and then and there we lost 1K.

                Lawyer didn't even know the case was pending Had to go look it up when the UST objected to the deduction at our 341.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by dontburnthep View Post
                  We still don't have childcare, haven't caught up on medical/dental, and haven't done any work to the cars. Originally we planned to convert to a 13, so we felt we needed some cushion. Since we lost so much with the Ransom decision, $1K off the means test, we need a lot of expenses to qualify for a 7 and would not qualify at this time.
                  Ok, clarify something for us; you're behind on medical / dental, cars need work but you havent done that, and you need childcare? Thats how its reading to me - if I'm misinterpreting, my apologies.

                  Leads me to my questions of - why wouldnt you qualify for a Ch. 7 if you havent taken into account medical expenses, dental expenses, child care costs, and that you are allowed car expenses for maintenance. Not to mention your vehicles are very old. If you have to repair them, have you factored in that cost vs. just getting another newer vehicle?

                  Ch. 13 is five long years.....and to say you didnt do the above due to "needing some cushion" - to me at least - sends red flags up all over the place. If you cant afford to get the things you need, how will you be able to afford a Ch. 13 payment plan?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Pandora View Post
                    Ok, clarify something for us; you're behind on medical / dental, cars need work but you havent done that, and you need childcare? Thats how its reading to me - if I'm misinterpreting, my apologies.
                    That's accurate. I work from home, full time, and my income is what pushes us over the median. With just my husband's income, we'd easily qualify for a 7. My children are in school during the year (ages 7 & 9) but home for the summers and I've just sucked it up and worked a lot of nights and weekends when they are home because with the credit obligations, we simply had no funds for childcare. I can't maintain that for 5 years of a chapter 13 plan.

                    Originally posted by Pandora View Post
                    Leads me to my questions of - why wouldnt you qualify for a Ch. 7 if you havent taken into account medical expenses, dental expenses, child care costs, and that you are allowed car expenses for maintenance. Not to mention your vehicles are very old. If you have to repair them, have you factored in that cost vs. just getting another newer vehicle?
                    We might qualify for a 7 if we spent the next 6 months catching up on all medical/dental, got adequate childcare, and did all the maintenance the cars needed- however, we lost 1K off our means test with the Ransom decision, so we'd have to spend 1K a month spread out over the 6 months, for a total of 6K, to qualify for the 7 and even if we caught up on everything, I don't think it would be enough to qualify. Nor do we have 1K a month to put toward those expenses. Purchasing newer vehicles would solve the problem for us, but we've now got ruined credit from our failed bankruptcy. Had we pre-planned at all, we absolutely would have purchased 2 newer vehicles before filing and would not be in this mess now.

                    Originally posted by Pandora View Post
                    Ch. 13 is five long years.....and to say you didnt do the above due to "needing some cushion" - to me at least - sends red flags up all over the place. If you cant afford to get the things you need, how will you be able to afford a Ch. 13 payment plan?
                    Yep, you're absolutely right and that is why we've decided not to convert to a 13 at this time. We stopped paying our creditors, filed chapter 7 3 weeks later, with no savings and no property and 2 old vehicles. As far as our bank statements show, we DO have funds for a 13 payment because we have nothing in child care, medical/dental, or vehicle maintenance over the last 6 months. There's no way we'd make it through a 13 with THIS filing. Again, primarily my fault for not doing the proper research but our lawyer was really, really bad. He pushed for the 7, said we'd qualify, there was no need to prepare in any way because we'd be debt free when discharged. Had no knowledge of the pending Ransom decision, and when it all went down, he basically said, "Welp, time to convert to a 13."
                    Last edited by dontburnthep; 07-18-2011, 08:16 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Oh and of course he also said we could fight the motion to dismiss, but he would require $3750 to do so, because he has spent so many hours "researching" the Ransom decision. But if we'd like to not fight the dismissal, he'd not charge us for that time, "as a courtesy" since it "wasn't our fault that the Ransom case went the way it did."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        And just so my position is clear- we have no problem with a 13 in itself. The problem comes with the proposed payment based on our numbers at filing, which was more than my entire monthly pay, about 30% of our entire income. I'd be working solely to make the 13 payment, with no childcare, for 5 years! We were paying significantly less when we were paying the creditors directly. A well-planned 13 that is designed to survive to discharge would be ideal for us but we see no way to make that happen. We can't get newer vehicles, so what happens when our 21 year old car dies sometime during the plan? We have no family that would cosign or help us if that happened. And the student loan's being thousands more after the 13 is done is awful. If I could go back, I would have planned for a 13 from the beginning and if we happened to get the 7, great, if not, we would have been prepared to see the 13 through to discharge. Lawyer said not to bother, we qualified for a 7.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                          The Ransom decision basically makes it the law -- across the land -- that you can't claim the "national standard" (ownership allowance) of $469/month as a car expense, if you don't have a loan on the car (or a lease)! Some courts were allowing the debtor to deduct the so-called "ownership allowance" even though the debtor had no loan (or lease) on the car!

                          The Supreme Court, in Ransom vs. FIA Card Services (Bank of America) made it the undisputed law (in an 8-1 vote) that you cannot take the allowance if you don't have a loan or lease!
                          I believe folks should keep in mind that although you cannot claim the ownership allowance, you are allowed 200.00 for a car that is a) over 10 yrs old or b) has over 75,000 miles, this is in addition the the operating costs. I claimed both on my petition. Don't know if it will help the OP but do know that is sometimes overlooked on the means test if you don't know about it. It was a "bonus" for me as I didn't know.
                          Filed CH 7 4/15/11
                          341 5/23/11
                          DISCHARGED & CLOSED ON 7/27/11

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by sunshinepa View Post
                            I believe folks should keep in mind that although you cannot claim the ownership allowance, you are allowed 200.00 for a car that is a) over 10 yrs old or b) has over 75,000 miles, this is in addition the the operating costs. I claimed both on my petition. Don't know if it will help the OP but do know that is sometimes overlooked on the means test if you don't know about it. It was a "bonus" for me as I didn't know.
                            Huh. We claimed the standard operating cost for both vehicles, as well as the ownership expense. It's the ownership expense that has been removed with Ransom. We did not claim an extra $200 for either car, both are 10+ years old and both have 75K+ miles. That $400 would have had us almost halfway to making up the amount we lost with Ransom and the rest would be made up with childcare. Of course our lawyer never mentioned it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Then to follow sunshinepa's comment...do you think you could at least get a free consult or two from other atty's? just to make ABSOLUTELY sure that there's nothing that can be done...

                              Comment

                              bottom Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X