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Very, very old BA debt and WW&R

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    Very, very old BA debt and WW&R

    My very, very old BoA/MBNA account was sold to LVNV a couple of years ago. They went through a variety of their CA firms, but I just kept sending them letters requesting DV or asking them to cease and desist communications. I think LVNV and all their CA firms operate under some parent company called Sherman Acq.

    Quick history: Missed first payment February, 2007. Tried some various reduced payment plans. Finally said screw it March, 2008. BA charged it off at 180 days Sept, 2008. Debt was purchased by LVNV in 2009. Currently, May, 2011 - The debt has now been handed to Weltman, W&Reis, the national collection "law firm."

    I finally returned their phone call and spoke with a gentleman who was quite respectful. He was clearly acting in a collection capacity. He said the debt showed a last payment date of 2009. I told him I also noticed that on my CR, but that is BA's problem. They had already charged off the debt and sold it. I think he even felt it looked sort of weird. He asked me my intentions; pay, not pay, etc. I told him I was prepared to discuss this in front of a local judge if they felt they would like to sue. I then explained my current, and permanent wage garnishments taking 25% of my income. I explained I had no assets, I could retire at any time, and upon retiring I could wait out 6-12 months and file a BK 7. I suggested he inform their client (LVNV) that they might want to be careful about throwing money toward a suit. In the end, we said our goodbyes in a cordial manner. The phone calls have stopped.

    I believe that the firm is testing the waters because this debt may be construed in a court of law to be SOL. The last agreement before charge off stated Delaware as the state of law. Since Oregon has a choice-of-law statute, it is my understanding I can choose Delaware's SOL of four years. I've posted the info to this forum elsewhere. My point is that if WW&R (or one of their local attorney network firms) sue me, I believe I will answer this suit and see just how my local circuit court judges address an affirmative defense of SOL. While the charge-off date is September of '08, the date of first delinquency is stated as July, 2008, but the first non-payment was February, 2007. While I did make some partial payments here and there, the debt never came out of official default status under the CC agreement. I have sent a certified letter to BoA requesting a copy of all history associated with this account. The 2009 date of last payment is total bullshit. I think this is probably when the debt was sold.

    I read a lot of discussions and arguments related to SOL and how various states address the SOL. I would be curious to see how my local Oregon circuit court would address this strange history. It seems pretty clear that there was no intention of bringing this debt current going back 4 years. Rather than have other 'experts" debate how the SOL is interpreted in my state, I think I would prefer to hear it directly from a judge. If experience has taught me anything, it is experience. LOL

    I have never done a local court records search using LVNV as plaintiff. I guess I will do so in the next few days and see what local cases might exist, and who the Oregon BAR attorney firm is, if any.

    I'm not sure why I posted this other than to share some information, and let you all know that I am now a member of the WW&R club. Any thoughts or comments are most welcome.

    #2
    Hi treehugger!:

    I don't have any real wisdom to share on your situation, but I will post ours so others can be aware.

    We filed Ch7 on 12/28/2007. At that time, our telephone land-line service was Southern Bell. Our long distance service was free. At some point during the Ch7 proceedings, AT&T took over Southern Bell and started charging for the long-distance service. We were never notified of this change or sent a bill, due I suppose to the 'Automatic Stay'. After we were discharged, we got a bill from AT&T for around $530. We didn't have the money then, nor do we now. We also never agreed to any kind of 'new debt' as we had never been notified.

    So we sent a C and D letter along with a copy of the Discharge Order. That seemed to settle things. But it didn't. The debt was sold to a CA, which in turn sent us a bill. We sent the info as before, only this CA didn't have a valid mailing address, and it came back. Over the years the debt has been resold and resold. Each time we send the C & D and Discharge Order.

    Now the holder of the debt is a company called AFNI Collection Agency. According to what we read on the Internet following a Google Search, this particular agency is very odious, and are known for unscrupulous tactics. Their offer to us is that they are willing to settle for one half the amount owed. We have until some date in August to reply.

    We sent our C and D letter, the copy of the Discharge Order, and a copy of case law regarding discharged debts. We will see what happens......
    Last edited by AngelinaCat; 05-12-2011, 07:46 AM. Reason: grammar
    "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

    "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

    Comment


      #3
      Treehugger, my friend, please put me in your circle of admirers - I truly respect and admire what you do - I think it's long past when we stand up against the financial-industrial complex. If nothing else, I can relish your victories!!!

      As always, all the very best wishes and good luck in your fight, my friend! I honestly think you're fighting for all of us.

      Comment


        #4
        I appreciate your sentiments. In truth, I have been humbled by own lack of good judgment in the past. Bankruptcy is still the best method for freeing yourself of debt (well, except student loans) and getting a fresh start. Since that method was not "best" in my situation, walking away was the best I could do. The outcome(s) of that decision is what I share. Sometimes it can be overwhelming. At other times, it can be downright comical.

        I admire everyone on this board who decided (bankruptcy or otherwise) to attempt a new beginning. If I can add information of value to others, then I will continue to contribute.

        I'll get down to my county courthouse and see how busy LVNV is in my county. In particular, I can see what attorneys they are using in the state.

        Sometimes I feel like this entire process has turned me into some type of financial sociopath

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks!!! Like I think I mentioned to you, for me BK is the only way to go - as hard etc it may be. But, I think - and maybe it's just maybe what my world view has become - I truly feel as if you are standing up against the establishment...for all of us. So I wish you fairwinds and the best of good luck! Let us know how this turns out!!!!!

          Originally posted by treehugger1 View Post
          I appreciate your sentiments. In truth, I have been humbled by own lack of good judgment in the past. Bankruptcy is still the best method for freeing yourself of debt (well, except student loans) and getting a fresh start. Since that method was not "best" in my situation, walking away was the best I could do. The outcome(s) of that decision is what I share. Sometimes it canbe overwhelming. At other times, it can be downright comical.

          I admire everyone on this board who decided (bankruptcy or otherwise) to attempt a new beginning. If I can add information of value to others, then I will continue to contribute.

          I'll get down to my county courthouse and see how busy LVNV is in my county. In particular, I can see what attorneys they are using in the state.

          Sometimes I feel like this entire process has turned me into some type of financial sociopath

          Comment


            #6
            treehugger1 I'm not quite following your time line here, If you say Feb.07 was the first missed payment then you could get the four years, but any of the other dates you mentioned are all short. The thing is "any" activie on the account will reset the clock so if you made any payment even if it was a good faith reduced payment or entered in to a hardship plan like interest only or no interest and made only one payment that resets the clock. This is why the collectors will try so hard to get anything out of you, just to extend the date out.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by freddysmith View Post
              treehugger1 I'm not quite following your time line here, If you say Feb.07 was the first missed payment then you could get the four years, but any of the other dates you mentioned are all short. The thing is "any" activie on the account will reset the clock so if you made any payment even if it was a good faith reduced payment or entered in to a hardship plan like interest only or no interest and made only one payment that resets the clock. This is why the collectors will try so hard to get anything out of you, just to extend the date out.
              You also have to watch what you say on the phone. Any acknowledgement of the debt could reset SOL. I am sure Treehugger02 knows this as he has been around awhile. Treehugger why did you not go a C20 and get rid of the dischargable debt then put on a 5 year payout for your student loans? 'Hub
              If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

              Comment


                #8
                A couple of things,

                "Promising to pay" does not necessarily imply a reset of SOL.

                Making a partial payment may not automatically reset the SOL.

                One has to look carefully at the wording of individual state laws and your cc agreements in terms of what constitutes default. I'm doing that now. In some cases, if a loan falls behind but never becomes current, the SOL may start to toll when the first payment was missed. This area of the law can be quite grey in some states. That is why we have judges and others to issue the ultimate interpretation, sometimes in individual cases. When you start reading the various forums on the web, it becomes clear that in some states, not even judges can agree. This should not upset anyone when the statutes are so vague. As always, I am not an attorney, so any suggestions I can give are only based on expereince or reading others' comments and experiences.

                AHC, I'm not sure what a C20 is. I won't repeat my entire story. I've told it enough. Bottom line, I could only do a BK 13 100% payback taking 60% of my wages. Student loans forced into 5 years of interest-bearing (at 8.25%) leading to an additional $35K - $40K of debt when I exited BK 13. While in BK 13 I would not be able to contribute 10% - 15% of my wages to optional retirement programs. The occassional wage garnishment I've suffered has really been minimal compared to what I would have paid out in the past 3 years of a BK 13. The 15% DOE wage garnishment is close to my original student loan payments (actually about $200 more per month.) Even if the remaining 10% is garnished for the next ten years, it is still a drop in the bucket compared to what I would have paid out and lost to retirement contributions. Believe me, I have looked at this from every angle. Currently, I am money ahead, way ahead. As always, my credit report and score have no meaning to me. As of the middle of July, I can choose to retire and file a BK 7 in the future.

                I still resent the fact that I was punished because I was a high-wage earner (far above the means test) and was not entitled to a BK 7 when I first knew I was in far over my head. I would have had to pay 100% of unsecured, not be allowed to contribute to optional retirement accounts, and not make payments on my student loans for five years. That sucks.
                Last edited by treehugger1; 05-12-2011, 05:16 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yes Treehugger, I now remember your ordeal. You have been absent for some time so welcome back. I saw another olde tymer here this evening. BigJohn. Take care and good fortune to you. 'Hub
                  If I knew it all, would I be here?? Hang in there = Retained attorney 8-06, Filed 12-28-07, Discharge 8-13-08, Finally CLOSED 11-3-09, 3-31-10 AP Dismissed, Informed by incompetent lawyer of CLOSED status, October 14, 2010.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Glad to see you're still around treehugger.
                    I'm of the opinion that LVNV has no account records at all to back this up.
                    So you can make this a very expensive process for them at little risk to yourself.
                    Hope they go away but either way, good luck and give 'em hell.
                    filed chapter 13..confirmed...converted to chapter 7...DISCHARGED!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hello again Treehugger - you know your strategy has always fascinated me...I guess one has to get over the fear of garnishment but then you also have to look at whether 25% of your pay (as determined by your state - now for those in no garnishment states or NYS where the max is 10% this is an even more complex question I suppose) is more or less than what you have to pay in BK 13...right? That is your calculus, so to speak. I guess that has crossed my mind in this process BUT - the thing of is is this - I guess you don't have a bank acct right? And I've read though - maybe from you I don't remember - and have verified this - that DE does not allow bank acct garnishment as long as the bank is a STATE chartered DE bank (small). So that could solve the banking issue. BUT...while one cannot be fired for having a garnishment, unless you work for a VERY large employer or employers where these things are commonplace, it may not help one's...ehem...future prospects...especially if it's one after the other...and then what about once your car loans are starting to get paid off...

                      I guess for me right now the 25% garnishments for spouse and me would (as of right now :-) be a bit more than the Ch 13 payment as of (fingers crossed) right now.

                      BUT - I guess if you are in a profession - say teaching, health care, etc., where they don't do credit checks and live in a no garnishment state and/or NYS...interesting...


                      Originally posted by treehugger1 View Post
                      A couple of things,

                      "Promising to pay" does not necessarily imply a reset of SOL.

                      Making a partial payment may not automatically reset the SOL.

                      One has to look carefully at the wording of individual state laws and your cc agreements in terms of what constitutes default. I'm doing that now. In some cases, if a loan falls behind but never becomes current, the SOL may start to toll when the first payment was missed. This area of the law can be quite grey in some states. That is why we have judges and others to issue the ultimate interpretation, sometimes in individual cases. When you start reading the various forums on the web, it becomes clear that in some states, not even judges can agree. This should not upset anyone when the statutes are so vague. As always, I am not an attorney, so any suggestions I can give are only based on expereince or reading others' comments and experiences.

                      AHC, I'm not sure what a C20 is. I won't repeat my entire story. I've told it enough. Bottom line, I could only do a BK 13 100% payback taking 60% of my wages. Student loans forced into 5 years of interest-bearing (at 8.25%) leading to an additional $35K - $40K of debt when I exited BK 13. While in BK 13 I would not be able to contribute 10% - 15% of my wages to optional retirement programs. The occassional wage garnishment I've suffered has really been minimal compared to what I would have paid out in the past 3 years of a BK 13. The 15% DOE wage garnishment is close to my original student loan payments (actually about $200 more per month.) Even if the remaining 10% is garnished for the next ten years, it is still a drop in the bucket compared to what I would have paid out and lost to retirement contributions. Believe me, I have looked at this from every angle. Currently, I am money ahead, way ahead. As always, my credit report and score have no meaning to me. As of the middle of July, I can choose to retire and file a BK 7 in the future.

                      I still resent the fact that I was punished because I was a high-wage earner (far above the means test) and was not entitled to a BK 7 when I first knew I was in far over my head. I would have had to pay 100% of unsecured, not be allowed to contribute to optional retirement accounts, and not make payments on my student loans for five years. That sucks.

                      Comment

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