Refusal To Pay Question?

[maxwellv8670]

I have read some threads and conversations on here between the person in debt and CC or CA. One thing that sticks out is the the people you owe will say "Are you refusing to pay", answer "No, I'm not refusing to pay". Why is it important to say that? What happens if you say "Yes, I'm refusing to pay".

One of my creditors has called and said I was over the limit. So now I'm getting this over the limit fees tacked on. The only reason I am over the limit is because they lowered my credit card by 5K. That is how much I had left on my card. So if I refuse to pay those fees what are they going to do? I am so confused on what to do. I know what needs to be done but I'm just scared. Thanks in advance.

[BKDefender]

If you refuse to pay (in writing though) then a debt collector is no longer able to contact you - it's just like a cease & desist letter telling them that they know where you are and that they may no longer contact you except to tell you what their next step is.

If it is not a debt collector but the actual creditor that you owe the money to that asks you this, and you refuse to pay, it could be considered an anticipatory repudiation of your responsibilities under the contract, thus an automatic breach of contract as opposed to merely a default. That would allow them to immediately sue you for breach instead of using their internal 90-180 day default/lawsuit procedure.

--William

[flyinbroke]

Yeah but they all call it a refusal to pay. Yeah, I refuse to pay anything over the phone. How do I know they are even with the banks they say they are...especially when they block their phone numbers? How do I know they are not employees looking to scam funds on the side? It boils down to being unable to pay anymore and not bowing down to "give us your bank account numbers and we will make it all better" as well.

Can't pay and won't pay are two different animals, yet every OC I have dealt with has documented "refusal to pay." I just don't bother talking to them (except for the anonymous callers...this is illegal in my state even for OCs.)

[maxwellv8670]

Thank you for answering my questions once again! You all are a great help to people and I am so glad I found this forum.

One more question and then I will leave you alone for awhile. I haven't filed bankruptcy, yet. But was wondering who in fact can show up at the 341 meetings? I know creditors can but can past employers show up (no I don't owe them any money)?

[BKDefender]

Anyone can show up to a 341 meeting but only creditors have the right to ask questions of you under oath.
You can go to the BK courthouse right now, sit in the room where the 341s are being held and listen to what it said and done. If you're still there when they're all done, the trustee might ask you if he can help you just to make sure he didn't miss your case, but they generally can't stop the public from sitting in there to listen unless there's no more room for debtors with cases.

So yes - your past employers could come into the room, sit down, and listen to what you say. If they hear you lie about something they can bring it up to the trustee, so don't.

--William

[maxwellv8670]

Anyone can show up to a 341 meeting but only creditors have the right to ask questions of you under oath.
You can go to the BK courthouse right now, sit in the room where the 341s are being held and listen to what it said and done. If you're still there when they're all done, the trustee might ask you if he can help you just to make sure he didn't miss your case, but they generally can't stop the public from sitting in there to listen unless there's no more room for debtors with cases.

So yes - your past employers could come into the room, sit down, and listen to what you say. If they hear you lie about something they can bring it up to the trustee, so don't.

--William

Wow. Thanks for that information, I think. LOL. I wasn't thinking along the lines of lying just more of embarrassment. I could totally see my creditors contacting them just to let them know when that meeting is to cause me embarrassment.

[GoingDown]

Hardly anyone shows up to the 341 except the debtor. Most creditors never show up. The exception would be local creditors-- like if you went bk on your dentist's bill and he was pissed at you.

"Refusal to pay" is what they all say.

They are trying to draw you into a conversation that ends in you agreeing to give them your checking account number or debit card number or credit card number so they can start taking payments out to pay your debt.

The best thing you can do is hang up when they say that.

[catleg]

Exactly. These people are masters at manipulating people over the phone and getting them scared and bewildered in order to squeeze a payment out. The beauty of the system is with 30% default APR, you can never catch up, and they'll just bleed you for as long as they can. (as long as you let them).

I really feel sorry for the people with no poker instinct when dealing with these calls.

I may not know how I'm getting out of the situation, but I know that paying you what you demand from me is not going to be the solution. If that's a refusal to pay, so be it.

[treehugger1]

In my opinion, its all an individual preference. It all depends upon how much "pain" you can tolerate. If you are not afraid of summons' and lawsuits and possible default judgments, what does it matter? If you are filing for BK, what does it matter? They should already know the answer before they asked the question. The reason they are calling is because "you did not pay." I sometimes wonder if the representative notes "customer refuses to pay" regardless of what you say. There is no way to know what the OC/CA's true reason for asking the question is. I do know that they often seem to use this as a foothold into a longer conversation. It seems to me that if you are not going to give them a way for you to make the payment (bank account, etc.) then you are refusing to pay.

[ryan]

This whole idea of repeatedly asking, "are you refusing to pay?" just confounds me.

I've been asked it a couple of times already, mostly by Discover. I have always said, "no, I'm just not able to pay." ...and one guy said, "well, I have to note something, blah, blah". (I felt like saying, "why don't you note that I said you sound like a girl?" lol

...seems like a game to me. Maybe it is more to arouse fear in the debtor than any real significance.

[GoingDown]

I don't think they write (or type) anything about the account when they speak to you. The one exception is if you give them your checking account number etc. They type that information into their system. Or if you tell them where you work etc.

Everything else is irrelevant to them.

When I made the mistake of answering the phone when creditors were calling for a deceased relative, I would try to explain the situation, nicely, over the phone and they always got to the point where they asked me how I would like to pay off these debts for my deceased relative, and started asking about my financial information. I told them I was not responsible for the debts and that I REFUSED TO PAY a dead relative's debts.

They did not write that information down.

The very next day they would call again and act as if we had never even had a conversation about this matter in the past.

After making the mistake of speaking to them several times, they stopped asking for my dead relative's executor, and started asking for me personally, and started treating me as if I personally owed the debt, and even resorted to the old "legal action" threat that I've heard so many times.

My point is... the mistake is talking to them at all.

[maxwellv8670]

I don't think they write (or type) anything about the account when they speak to you. The one exception is if you give them your checking account number etc. They type that information into their system. Or if you tell them where you work etc.

Everything else is irrelevant to them.

When I made the mistake of answering the phone when creditors were calling for a deceased relative, I would try to explain the situation, nicely, over the phone and they always got to the point where they asked me how I would like to pay off these debts for my deceased relative, and started asking about my financial information. I told them I was not responsible for the debts and that I REFUSED TO PAY a dead relative's debts.

They did not write that information down.

The very next day they would call again and act as if we had never even had a conversation about this matter in the past.

After making the mistake of speaking to them several times, they stopped asking for my dead relative's executor, and started asking for me personally, and started treating me as if I personally owed the debt, and even resorted to the old "legal action" threat that I've heard so many times.

My point is... the mistake is talking to them at all.

Before all this started with me I used to get phone calls for a living relative and they always acted like I was that person and I was lying. I hated that and it pi$$ed me off to no end. The gall that they would have to call my phone and then act like I was lying.....ooohhhh that made me so mad!

I used to work at a nursing home and right in the middle of someone in transition of passing from this life to the next some idiot would call trying to collect a bill. I heard at least 2 conversations that family had on the phone with a collector and they would be angry. I can't much blame them. No one needs that kind of harrasement. And certainly not when they are taking their last breath.

[Scott50]

I could totally see my creditors contacting them just to let them know when that meeting is to cause me embarrassment.

???

[maxwellv8670]

I think it's pretty self explanatory?