Can your checking account be found?

[frogger]

For example, how does a legitimate business obtain my checking account information if hypothetically, the account is some financial institution in another state, far far away. And the institution only has one location in one town - no other branches. And the institution does not check credit reports. To open and maintain an account they check your DMV information which you supply to confirm your identity. Then they look for your name in ChexSystems. This does not leave a footprint in Chexsystems anymore than my searching for my name in a local court computer adds my name to their files. Since the account does not generate interest, it is not reported to the IRS.

So how would they locate this account out the the tens of thousands of similar small institutions throughout the country?

You can thank the Patriot Act for this. A bank does not have the option of checking and reporting.

Everything about you is for sale. Even your footprints.....

[catleg]

frogger, could you just provide a name for a company providing this service, or a website. If what you say is true, then there is no reason for debtors exams and account-locator services which charge $50 and up for a "guaranteed hit".

[Dst1]

That is true for your credit report.

And the wording that you must check off on when accessing is:


For use by persons holding a legal or beneficial interest relating to the consumer


We're not talking scare tactics. We're not talking about your credit report.

But that is not all the different in it's intent than the statement one has to sign to get a credit report. I'd like to know how this has been interpreted by the courts. The WHOLE thing sounds very strange to me; like you found an outfit sailing a little to close to the proverbial wind. I'd like to see how a challenge to such tactics holds up in court.

[WhatMoney]

[

Originally Posted by WhatMoney

For example, how does a legitimate business obtain my checking account information if hypothetically, the account is some financial institution in another state, far far away. And the institution only has one location in one town - no other branches. And the institution does not check credit reports. To open and maintain an account they check your DMV information which you supply to confirm your identity. Then they look for your name in ChexSystems. This does not leave a footprint in Chexsystems anymore than my searching for my name in a local court computer adds my name to their files. Since the account does not generate interest, it is not reported to the IRS.

So how would they locate this account out the the tens of thousands of similar small institutions throughout the country?

You can thank the Patriot Act for this. A bank does not have the option of checking and reporting.
Everything about you is for sale. Even your footprints.....

Mentioning the Patriot Act does not answer my question, and I don't understand your comment about banks. (I'll sell you my footprints for $100 each, or both for $175, if you are interested, shipping and insurance not included.)

Where is this great database that contains the account numbers, bank location and branches, for all checking accounts in the country? This has been mentioned before by collectors trying to scare people, and conspiracy nuts that also think the government is injecting tracking devices in your body when you get an H1N1 flue shot. Until something factual is provided, the great checking account national database is an urban legend.

Even if you have a judgment against a debtor you still need a court ordered subpoena (with cause) to obtain private financial information that is not available in databases. And in this case you need to know who to subpoena - which can get expensive if you have no clue where to start.

[WhatMoney]

Legal Ways to Locate Bank Accounts

Note that most of these techniques require a court ordered subpoena with specific instructions and cause - not what you will get from an "information seller". One should be aware of these methods if you want to protect the privacy of your checking account. In many cases these techniques are obsolete because of privacy laws. Meaning illegal methods would be required to obtain specific information. Item 10, Debtors Exam is still the only positive way to obtain checking account information - and that has little utility if the account is then closed by the debtor.

Legal Ways to Locate Bank Accounts

The following information has been compiled from various sources to aid law information, bank investigators, law firms and researchers who are in need to obtain checking account information for investigatory reasons only.

1. Buy Something from the Defendant
Have someone purchase something from the defendant's store or business. Be sure to pay by check. Naturally, this procedure works best if the defendant runs a business or service operation. If he or she does, it is a relatively simple matter to purchase something from the defendant. If the he or she performs a service, simply hire him or her to work for you. If, as an attorney, you think your subject will not fall for this method, use a third party in your place. I warn you not to involve a third party in an undercover operation if you believe there is the slightest chance for violence.

This seemingly simple task can lead to some unusual situations. I had a case against a debtor who ran a small retail establishment. My goal was to simply go into the store and purchase something with a check so I could obtain the store's bank account number. The business was located close to Martin Luther King Boulevard in a predominately black area of town. It was quite a challenge for a white guy to look inconspicuous under these circumstances.

Sure enough, in my next bank statement was the debtor's bank account information on the back of the check I had written him for merchandise bought in his store.

2. UCC Filings - File Copy from the Secretary of State
A search should be made of Uniform Commercial Code filings. The bank that loaned the defendant money may be the same bank he or she uses personally.

The debtor will probably obtain financing from a bank that he or she normally does business with. This makes sense. The debtor will usually have a better chance of obtaining a loan from a bank he or she already has a banking relationship with.
Once the debtor's probable bank is identified, you have at least two bites of the apple in obtaining the debtor's bank account. The debtor may have applied to the same bank for a loan.

3. UCC Filing - Loan Application from the Secured Party
Keep in mind what purpose that a UCC-1 filing serves. It is to provide notice to the public that the secured party has an interest in the debtor's property. This is generally from the secured party loaning money to the debtor. The debtor does this by filling out a loan application and financial statement. This information should contain the debtor's bank account information.

4. UCC Filings - Check from the Secured Party to the Debtor
In a loan situation the bank will issue a check to the debtor. The debtor will deposit the check in his or her bank account. As the check makes it's way back to the issuing bank the debtor's bank account number will be on the back of the check issued by the bank. If you subpoena the secured party for a copy of this check it will show the document trail including the name and account number of the bank the debtor actually deposited the check.

5. UCC Filing - Copy of the Debtor's Checks
The debtor is obligated to pay the secured party back for it's loan each month--presumably with a check. All you have to do is subpoena the targeted bank for the above information--any loan applications and/or financial statements of the debtor, any checks the bank issued to the debtor, and the debtor's checks over a period of several months.

6. Previous Landlord-- Rental Application
Subpoena the previous landlord of the defendant for a copy of the rental application to see where the defendant banked. Most people are usually creatures of habit. Once a banking relationship is established, it generally remains the same.

7. Previous Landlord-- Security Deposit, Canceled Check
Now, the above information may be outdated. However, there are two additional sources of records that the landlord has regarding the debtor's bank account. One is the security deposit and cleaning refund check that was given to the tenant / debtor upon move out. The debtor may have deposited this check in his bank account. The landlord or the landlord's bank has a copy of this check. The debtor's bank account information should be on the backside.

8. Previous Landlord-- Copies of the debtor's Rent Checks
During the rental period the tenant/debtor probably paid the landlord by check. The landlord may cooperate or you may have to subpoena him to obtain this information. The landlord will claim he does not have access to these checks. This may be a true statement. The fact of the matter that the bank microfilmed every check the landlord deposited in his account. This includes the Debtor's rent checks.

9. Blanket Levy
This technique involves serving a Writ of Execution and a Bank Levy on every bank in the area. This procedure assumes that you will hit an account eventually and that the debtor will bank within only a few mile radius of his home or work. It is rumored that the IRS has used this tactic in the past. For obvious reasons, this technique works best in a small town.

10. Debtors Examinations
At this proceeding you can demand that the debtor tell you where his bank account is. The unfortunate effect of this procedure is that the defendant can take most (if not all) of his money out of the account before you can get to it. However, do not dismiss the usefulness of the examination too quickly. Not all debtors are Einstein's. Some debtors do not think to empty their bank accounts. Additionally, there is actual value in finding a bank account with only a few bucks in it or even one that has already been closed. The value is in the microfilmed records the bank will retain on the account.

Just think about it for a second. What documents would a debtor deposit in his bank account? If you answered any of the followings: the debtor's payroll check, the debtor's spouse's payroll check, stock dividend checks, rental income checks, you would be right! Each category of information is extremely valuable to a creditor enforcing a judgment. What is more, the debtor will probably take the funds from his now defunct account and--probably in the form of a check from his old account--deposit it in a new account.

11. Employer
If you know the debtor's employer you may consider serving a Business Record Subpoena on the employer to obtain a copy of a payroll check the debtor has "cashed". The check should have the defendant's account number and possibly the name of the bank on the back of it.

12. Current Landlord--Rental Application
The current landlord probably has a rental application on file that show the defendant's bank account.

13. Current Landlord--Past Check
Subpoena from the current landlord a copy of the defendant's past month's rent check.

14. Current Landlord--Current Rent Checks
Subpoena from the current landlord a copy of the defendant's current month's rent check.

15. Trash Search
Some investigative agencies such as the IRS, FBI, local law enforcement agencies, and private investigators will conduct trash searches. The information obtained will reveal the bank where the defendant has an account in addition to probably more information than you ever wanted to know about the defendant. In fact, a trash search tells so much about a debtor that it is absolutely scary. Think I am kidding? Tell you what, to every person who reads this and for an instant thinks this technique will not work, I have an exercise for you. Go through your own trash for a one week period. Write down everything that you can conclude about your household--likes and dislikes in foods and cosmetics, medications, personal correspondence, etc., etc. Are you now considering incinerating your own trash?

16. Yard Sale
This is an unusual procedure reserved for the stout of heart. It will not work if the defendant knows you on sight. The way it works is to send post cards to everyone who lives on the defendant's block. The post card should read something like, "Block yard sale this weekend". Put up a few signs directing traffic on the appropriate day. The defendant will be caught up in the excitement and open his garage to sell his unwanted items. First, this is a great chance to view the defendant at home, up close and personal. Take covert inventory of the defendant's assets. Second, buy something from the defendant and pay by check.

17. Telephone Records (Search Warrant Required)

18. State Sales Tax Permits
The application for a Sales Tax permit requires that the business list it's bank account. This is certainly true of the current sales tax permit for California. It is probably true for other states as well.

19. Employment Development Department Permit
The Employment Development Department application, an permit that allows an employer to hire employees, normally requires that the business list it's bank account.

20. Divorce records, community property settlement
Sometimes these records contain a wealth of financial information, including: the name and account number of checking, savings, brokers, stocks, credit cards and bonds account. Often the description and address of private property and the make, model and license number of vehicles also are included in the divisions of property papers.

http://www.ckfraud.org/banksearch.html

[ryan]

The idea that a certain type of creditor could get checking acct info for $2.95 seems odd.
If this was so easy and cheap, why do many CC companies try lots of tricks to get debtors to reveal Bank acct info on the phone?

..I've already had 2 different CC's offer to 'help me', but they needed either post-dated checks or checking acct numbers for auto debiting..they did not even seem particularly concerned if the amount was small, either.

For them, why go thru all the trouble and scheming if they can just order up the info?

[WhatMoney]

The idea that a certain type of creditor could get checking acct info for $2.95 seems odd.
If this was so easy and cheap, why do many CC companies try lots of tricks to get debtors to reveal Bank acct info on the phone?

..I've already had 2 different CC's offer to 'help me', but they needed either post-dated checks or checking acct numbers for auto debiting..they did not even seem particularly concerned if the amount was small, either.

For them, why go thru all the trouble and scheming if they can just order up the info?

Good question. So far only Frogger is claiming to have the new secret knowledge that will expose my Moldavian money market account for only $2.95. We are all anxiously awaiting some actual facts from him that verifies his claims. I am not holding my breath.

[frogger]

[


Mentioning the Patriot Act does not answer my question, and I don't understand your comment about banks.

A bank no longer has the option to check and report your information. They are required to check and report. Go to any bank and open a new account. They want copies of picture ID.

The "great database" is the credit companies, ie equifax, lexis/nexis, check-s7s, trans-union, TRW and the many others that gather information. Information is gathered on everyone on a daily basis, from when you shop to when you open banking accounts.

And...... I don't wear a tin-foil hat or go for conspiracy theories. Information is gathered, and it is for sale.

And as to your previous question about where to go to find it, it is not in my best interests to start naming websites on the board. I deal with these people and will tell you that they are legit, and their companies provide this information to your creditors for a fee.

The websites that can be seen by the public do not go into the detail of what they can provide. Until you get the pricing schedules and the white papers, you just don't know.

As to the website you linked, that is a site devoted to check fraud. That is not the subject at hand. We are talking business use of information, not check fraud. Totally different subject.

If you choose not to believe, go ahead. I won't try to convince you otherwise. Believe what you will.

[treehugger1]

In terms of the patriot act, as far as I know (and from speaking with folks in the banking industry) the act requires banks to verify identities and monitor suspicious activity. The banks do not send your information to some giant national database that reports to some government agency when you apply for an account. Some will check with ChexSys and/or credit reporting agencies. They are required to submit information under court orders, but this is not done as a normal course of business. There is the Patriot Act, but there is also acts related to the protection of our privacy. It would seem to me that banks are walking a thin line if they give out information to anyone who asks. It seems to me they only "report" actions that are considered suspicious.

If you want to have fun, go apply for 20 different accounts; hometown, nearby city, online, etc! Encourage them all to run both a chexsys and credit report. Heck, you could even open up a few accounts and have checks sent to you, only to close the accounts in a few weeks. Nothing illegal about this. IF people are concerned about leaving a trail of identity, then why not build a massive trail with all kinds of forks. Why not spread your identity all over the place?

When I looked at my LN report, there were bogus addresses, public records, and all kinds of BS. I was pretty happy to see that type of info. Who am I to correct them during my personal financial crisis. It seemed clear to me that in the end it could cost someone $1000's of dollars to act on information they had obtained; purchased for $2.95 or otherwise.

Just hypothesizing here.

[frogger]

If you want to have fun, go apply for 20 different accounts; hometown, nearby city, online, etc! Encourage them all to run both a chexsys and credit report. Heck, you could even open up a few accounts and have checks sent to you, only to close the accounts in a few weeks. Nothing illegal about this. IF people are concerned about leaving a trail of identity, then why not build a massive trail with all kinds of forks. Why not spread your identity all over the place?

Just hypothesizing here.

I agree.

[ryan]

...If you want to have fun, go apply for 20 different accounts; hometown, nearby city, online, etc! Encourage them all to run both a chexsys and credit report. Heck, you could even open up a few accounts and have checks sent to you, only to close the accounts in a few weeks. ...

I am actually in the process of doing this now.

[Pizza]

It seemed clear to me that in the end it could cost someone $1000's of dollars to act on information they had obtained; purchased for $2.95 or otherwise.

The sentence above is the most important part. Each action taken by a creditor has a price tag. Legally, they must obtain a court order for EACH checking account garnishment (for each TIME it's garnished). If the money isn't there, it's not going to be worth the time and trouble.

For some good ole fun, keep about $10 in your old free checking account that the creditor already knows about and open at a small bank elsewhere if you are required to set up direct deposit at work (keep that one spent down too - if you are broke it's not that hard). Naturally, the creditor will find out about the $10 account first and pay court costs to garnish it BEFORE discovering it's got $10 in it. It's unlikely they're going to want to play anymore after that, just keep an eye out for it so you can picture the next move.

[LimpDisc]

I am with frogger on this one. No doubt in my mind that this information is collected and available for a price. It's amazing how much information is available for for free by visiting certain websites.

[WhatMoney]

Here are the rates for a reputable national search firm:
Bank Account Search
15 to 20 business days
Locates one bank account for $299, with ability to locate multiple accounts for an additional fee. Nationwide search. Includes the following information:
** Banking Institution
** Balance in Account
** Exact Name(s) on Account
** Type of Account
** Banking Branch where Account was Opened
$299
$75 No-Hit Fee
Can Locate
Multiple Accounts
for an Additional
$199 – All Accts
Note they do not include account numbers, and have a no hit fee.

If your account/bank is NOT in ChexSystems, and is in NONE of the credit bureaus, not in Lexus/Nexis, and has NOT been obtained by illegal methods, then the chances of finding it in a legal database is slim. I am not talking about illegal databases where information has been collected by hacking, fraud, bribes, and pretexting. These still exist, but that was not the point of the Frogger's post, which implied any account could easily be found nationally for $2.95. This is BS unless proven otherwise.

It would be more useful to discuss how to avoid checking account detection (perfectly legal), than to suggest there is no hope despite all precautions.

[ryan]

Here are the rates for a reputable national search firm:
Bank Account Search
15 to 20 business days
Locates one bank account for $299, with ability to locate multiple accounts for an additional fee. Nationwide search. Includes the following information:
** Banking Institution
** Balance in Account....

This is all very interesting. I'm particularly wondering how they can get the AMOUNT in the account? ...seems like a complete invasion of privacy.