Real Criminal Charge Pending or Collection Ploy?

[HHM]

Unless you bounced a check, usually above $100, and will not make it good, the DA would not get into a petty $300 criminal case. Civil anyone can sue you but criminal? I would go to the website and varify the phone numbers and the name you got from whomever and call to verify if you have an open complaint. D.A.'s have better things to do than fool with pennies when they are prosicuting murderers and drug dealers. I'm prone to agreeing with "Faust" as this is some set up. 'Hub

Let's be careful here, we are speculating about NV law. Which, based on the posts so far, no one has actually looked-up. As said in the prior thread on this topic, this may very well be a criminal issue (albeit, most likely a misdemeanor). Most types of Civil fraud have some sort of criminal component, especially in this sort of context when someone takes money to do a job and then doesn't perform the work.

[brokenomore]

Unless my BK attorney gives me a very compelling reason why I should not pay, I am going to pay it.

The special investigator said that it would be a "felony" charge.


My concern now is for the big picture, since I've got other customers who are still waiting for the work to be done. I told my BK attorney my plans to write them a letter explaining financial hardship, a pending bk filing, but that I still will be doing their work (just that I cannot repay the funds in cash), and he was fine with that. It seemed he was going to treat them as creditors.

I don't know how the law works, but it seems to me there would be a distinction between the obvious scam, where a business intended to defraud, and one in which the contract was breeched because of a financial hardship, and that the law would see them differently. But again...I don't know the criminal law, and the guy from the DA offices said "intent" does not matter.

[747LUVR]

Let's say someone collected a lot of advance payments and then a calamity struck his business--a fire destroyed half his inventory (and he could not ship many of his orders due to this destruction) and he had no insurance to cover it, and most of the advance payments were spent on ogoing operations. He had no funds to keep his business going, fell behind in his bills, and was forced into bankruptcy.

Could a customer come after him for "fraud" in this case or for theft by deception, and could he be charged for felony?

Yes, is the answer to the hypothetical question regarding if a fire struck a business. I have 8 years in claims experience under my belt at a very large insurance carrier. Anytime these transactions take place, in any contract, you would need to provide COI's. (english terms- Certificate of Insurance- providing coverage to cover your loss, and your customers loss). You're in a viscous cycle, robbing peter to do pauls work, and the only way to proceed to is to get billy to pay to do peters work.. I would suggest you revamp how you operate your business model. It catches up to you and if their coming after you for $300, is it worth it?

[brokenomore]

My hypothetical wasn't very good, then.

Think of it more like you got a bunch of labor-intensive jobs to do, collected deposits from customers, then fell ill for a month or two and used up the deposit money, thinking you would make up for it after you got well, but then things did not work out so well and you fell further behind.

Is that "fraud"?

Ideally a business should have reserves to allow for this type of thing, and I should have too, but so should everyone else who filed bankruptcy. The few advance deposits I have to worry about are small compared with my huge consumer debt that I have to discharge, and that's where the real moral issues are with me, and I feel terrible having to stick it to my creditors, and all this could have been prevented with planning and wisdom and saving for the future.

I'm most likely going to pay this, but it concerns me that this could be criminal instead of civil, and that intent is not taken into consideration.

[AngelinaCatHub]

My hypothetical wasn't very good, then.

Think of it more like you got a bunch of labor-intensive jobs to do, collected deposits from customers, then fell ill for a month or two and used up the deposit money, thinking you would make up for it after you got well, but then things did not work out so well and you fell further behind.

Is that "fraud"?

Ideally a business should have reserves to allow for this type of thing, and I should have too, but so should everyone else who filed bankruptcy. The few advance deposits I have to worry about are small compared with my huge consumer debt that I have to discharge, and that's where the real moral issues are with me, and I feel terrible having to stick it to my creditors, and all this could have been prevented with planning and wisdom and saving for the future.

I'm most likely going to pay this, but it concerns me that this could be criminal instead of civil, and that intent is not taken into consideration.

Don't beat yourself up too badly. If all of us saw the hindsight you just described, nobody would be on this forum. We have all made our mistakes as well as some fateful situation. I being constantly sued by my enemy, milked out of thousands of dollars of lawyer bills for nine years, and nothing ever went to Court. Then the big C among all that after him costing us three jobs.

Your letter idea is a good one. Kill this one threat off first, and hope that others are settled down and patient. Start, finish one job at a time, get the rest of that job's payment, and hit the next. Take the shortest easiest job first so as to deplete the count of open jobs. for every finished job you do, you will feel better and more pleased with doing the right thing.

As far as your creditors, after you get bk relief there is nothing saying you cannot pay them by your choice after getting on your feet. To have that knowledge that you are free of that debt will make paying that debt even more rewarding.

My grandfather during the "1st Great Depression", lost his house too. The bank allowed his family to live in the house for several years while he went on the road (the rail road riding the rails) and he was known as a rail road hobo. He told me stories of working were ever he could and sending all the money home to his family. After the depression he became a railroad steam engineer. The house had been sold, and my grandfather rented. He paid off the whole mortgage in the years after even though he did not nor would he ever own the house. You don't find character like this anymore. 'Hub

[NoTomatoCan]

Just a quick note about Nevada Law (While far from an expert, I have gotten somewhat familiar with it since I have a sizeable NV debt that I will be including in my upcoming CH13)...

Nevada is VERY tough on bad debts (bounced checks, casino markers, ANY unpaid obligation).

This is courtesy of the casino lobby, but applies very broadly.

The local district attorney offices act as a psudo collection agency. You think JDC are bad, wait until you have a potential felony warrant hanging over your head!

The good thing is that BK courts have seen through this and recognize the DA's office as a type of collection agency. Further good news is that (in general) the DA's office will NOT pursue charges if you include the debt in a BK so long as the BK is filed BEFORE they get the complaint. This is true for Clarke County, among other. Final good news is that, in general, they will drop any charges if you pay full restitution and fees. (but who wants to deal with that mess, and who knows what stays on your criminal record?!)

Bad news is that if the DA files charges before you file BK then the only way to make it go away is to pay. Then you will be dealing with a possible felony (maybe misdemeanor) charge on top of all your BK worries.

Assuming this is really legit, I would pay the $300 and not screw around.

I am not in NV, so maybe someone from that state will weigh in, but that is what I have discovered with much research, calls to various NV bad debt divisions, and discussions with NV BK lawyers.

[brokenomore]

NTC,

Did you get threatened with felony charges and a warrant?

[NoTomatoCan]

Yes, but different circumstances and for a much larger amount (it was a debt, not a deposit for work not performed). And it wasn't so much a threat as a statement, as in "The law in Nevada allows for felony prosecution if this debt is not repaid in full." Which might as well be a threat. It was in my best interest to work out an arrangement to begin paying on the debt until I file.

You stated a sheriff delivered you a business card. That alone would probably be enough to squeeze the $300 out of me. NV doesn't seem to screw around.

My point was simply that if I were you, I wouldn't take the risk and would pay it.

Felonly or misdemeanor, I am not sure you want to be dealing with either. And if $300 can make THAT worry go away, it seems like a worthwhile investment.

Think of it this way... Even if it isn't a big deal, the time and effort (or possible attorney fees if it does become a criminal matter) you would exert to deal with it would probably make the $300 seem reasonable.

[dscurlock]

The DA can go after anyone they deem fit that has commited a crime
in their eyes, small or large. You can go to jail for taking a .25c
bubble gum...I am baffled at the fact that the DA would even
mess with a $300 claim...maybe it is not the claim itself, maybe
its the fact another contractor took a deposit from a customer, and
did not follow through with the work...i would be pissed off too.

in the end, its up to the DA if they want to go after you, and
from what I have read, it sounds like they do...

I would think anytime a police officer shows up to
give you some type of notice, then it is going to
be somewhat important.

[forgotten]

Another obvious question is WHY did you take deposits from what sounds like tons of customers and not do the work?
Unless you became ill and unable to work it would smell like fraud to me too.

[dscurlock]

Another obvious question is WHY did you take deposits from what sounds like tons of customers and not do the work?
Unless you became ill and unable to work it would smell like fraud to me too.

what concerns me is that while some rapist victim may
not be getting the DA's full attention as they are going
after $300 that should be a civil matter...

I was once arrested for walking around on some appartment
property, LONG AGO...I always felt, while this jackel
was arresting me for walking around, some girl was getting raped or
murdered, not having the full attention of the police...

[dscurlock]

I just heard on the news that this home improvement person took
1000's of dollars, and did not provide his services...he is in jail !

let this be a lesson - never pay such a huge amount of money
up front - I would even be lery of paying 50% up front...your
property can not run away if you do not pay, but if you pay the
home improvement person, he can vanish in a flash - BOOM - MONEY GONE!

I would surely never pay $14,000 upfront for home improvement
with nothing being done or anything to show up...you have
to work for my money, life is not a free ride for me just to
give up that much cash with no work being started...

[Faust]

Another obvious question is WHY did you take deposits from what sounds like tons of customers and not do the work?
Unless you became ill and unable to work it would smell like fraud to me too.

Are you reading the same thread? Where did the OP say "tons of customers"?

Companies do this kind of stuff all the time when the go out of business. Fitness clubs, video rental stores, any company that provides a service and requires a deposit or membership. They NEVER go to jail for it.

[brokenomore]

Another obvious question is WHY did you take deposits from what sounds like tons of customers and not do the work?
Unless you became ill and unable to work it would smell like fraud to me too.

Why would someone run up a credit card to thousands of dollars, take out another credit card and do the same thing, and then file bankruptcy?

It's not much different.

The intent was to perform the work, but some work, for various reasons, including some poor planning, did not get done, and deposit money got absorbed.

I don't believe I said anywhere that "tons of customers" were invovled. The amount is small compared to my credit card and medical debt, and I will eventually be completing the work. No fraud intended ever. And I will legally be absolved from doing the work, but I'm still going to do it.

[forgotten]

Are you reading the same thread? Where did the OP say "tons of customers"?

Companies do this kind of stuff all the time when the go out of business. Fitness clubs, video rental stores, any company that provides a service and requires a deposit or membership. They NEVER go to jail for it.

Sorry... it was more of a devils advocate type of thing, I didn't intend to imply the op really had intened to commit fraud, just that I can see why it would look that way.

"tons of customer" was my interpretation from lines such as, "It's repaying the deposits in cash that would be a hardship, and impossible if I had to do it for all of them.", and "I'm not capeable of refunding all deposits I received."

Just how I read it, once again, may not be the case.

People and corporations are treated differently. I am assuming the op is not incorporated and operates out of a commercial building? That makes all the difference in the eyes of a lot of people.

Who are you more likely to think ripped you off on purpose? Fitness works who paid $300 for the year and closed up shop 6 months later or Jack down the street who you paid $60 to so you could use his excercise bike for a year and he moved 6 months later (yes, no one would do that, but its an example).

Anyway... i'm rambling... no intention to offend. sorry.